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  Review: Max Payne 2 - The Fall of Max Payne
On 10/27/03 by Turner 'Bulldog' Hopkinson

Developer: Relic Entertainment
Publisher: Rockstar Games
Release Date: 10/14/03
ESRB: "M" for Mature
Official Site: www.maxpayne2.com
Platform(s): PC

Gameplay
Good ole' Max Payne. Mr. American cop gone bad ass. In short, Rockstar has managed to keep the same vibe and characteristics that gamers internationally have grown to love and just in general took everything to that "next level" of perfection. That's all folks. Hope you enjoyed this review. In all honesty though there really isn't much more I can say beyond getting into specific details - the game is just that good. With that said, first let me tackle the single biggest complaint I've seen filed against the game up until this point; the short
:: max payne 2 ::
:: max payne 2 ::
:: max payne 2 ::
storyline and lack of replayability. First off, yes, the storyline is short and if you rush through it you can probably finish it in around five hours. This is the point where a few of you are doing the math and saying "gee whiz, that's nearly $10 an hour to play this game if I can only play it for five hours total!" My response to those naysayer's? Simple; sure you CAN rush through the game and complete it in five hours but that is not how the game is meant to be played. You're supposed to sit back, enjoy the various oddities and ambient additions the developer has added in. Take that extra few minutes to pick up the phone and hear what the answering machine says and don't just shoot out any television you come across, rather listen to it - especially considering what it says is almost guaranteed to be humorous in some dark and/or twisted way. If you play through the game with that non-rushed mindset then I can absolutely guarantee you will find Max Payne 2 to be worth your hard earned jack.

Next up I will briefly cover the actual gameplay components. Artificial intelligence; one word: amazing. The days of the enemy standing around and twiddling their thumbs while you shoot at them are gone. Here your opponents will lay down cover fire, strategically use everything around them in their attempts to kill you, and actually duck when you fire at them. Occasionally you'll also find allies who fight alongside you but they seemed to be dumber than a rock and often managed to die in a rather spectacular fashion before even really entering the fight. Weapons; they're everywhere!
:: max payne 2 ::
:: max payne 2 ::
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You've have a full fledged arsenal available to you ranging from the trademarked dual 9mm pistols to the sawed-off shotgun to the amazingly potent long range sniper rifles. Moving onto bullet time, the feature that many could argue turned the original game into such a hyped success. How does it fare this time around? Exponentially better, and Rockstar's title for it - "Bullet Time v2.0" - fits perfectly. Last but not least how does the third person view affect the gameplay? For two individual reasons, not at all. Firstly, I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Max as he performed his amazing tricks of survival. Secondly, bullet time would be substantially less impressive if you didn't actually witness Mr. Payne moving through the air in slow motion.

Graphics
Absolutely stunning. Again, as with the gameplay, there really isn't that much I can say. Put bluntly, I believe wholeheartedly they are the best graphics seen in a PC game to date. True, I did play the game on a top-notch gaming rig but what's nice about it is the countless different ways you can manipulate the quality of the visuals. After playing on my main rig for a while I went downstairs and tested this baby out on an 800MHz system and much to my surprise (albeit with most of the graphics qualities turned all the way down) the game still ran smoothly and really didn't look all that bad. What really stuck in my mind though were the character models and the environments. It was immediately and painfully obvious to me that the developer spent a substantial amount of time developing these characters and it shows in their quality. On a side note, the way major characters are introduced involves a slowing down of the camera and zooming in on their faces for a brief instant. This effect came off very movie-esque and really was one of those minor details that, done everywhere else, make the game what it is.

Continuing with my trend of saying how basically everything in the game rocks my socks I won't stop here - the environments are so well designed that the vast majority of the time I felt like I was roaming through a real life apartment building or warehouse. In the apartment levels it was kind of disappointing to see so many doors locked, thus limiting where I could travel, but besides that they're pretty fantastic. Moving onto the facial expressions I think they could have used a little work. Excuse the language here, but I sware to God, I don't think Max's expression would have changed if I cut his balls open with a rusty hacksaw. Supposedly the guy is all emotional and distressed on the inside about what has happened to him in his life but he has one hell of a way of showing it on the outside! With that said lets move onto the next big item shall we? The physics engine. And oh what a physics engine it is, as good as Half-Life 2's if I didn't know any better. Enemies fly realistically through boxes, you can shove stuff over, push it if it's a tad bit heavier, or not even be able to budge it if it weighs the size of your grandmothers Volkswagen. True, I haven't seen Half-Life 2 in action yet so perhaps I'm jumping the gun by making the comparison but I can say this - based on the movies I've seen showing off solely the physics engine - there appeared to be very little that this sequel could not duplicate effortlessly.

Sound
I think I've about exhausted the usage of this line throughout this review but once again - there simply isn't much to say about this category. It's just that good, I sware! The guns reverberate through your headphones and are all modeled after the real deal. Occasionally things did get a little loud to the point my ears were ringing non-stop but this was only due to the enemy realistically laying down hundreds of rounds to cover their cohorts while they strategically utilized cover in an effort to take me down. The voiceovers also don't disappoint and if you've got nerves of steel you can sneak up to two or more enemies and actually hear them engaging in a conversation that may or may not be related to you. Overall simply marvelous, nuff' said.

In a Word: Perfection.

Word to Publisher: Best PC game of the year. Keep on publishing these crown jewels and you'll be bloody rich!

Full Reviews:
  • GameTab - Index
  • GameSpot - 9/10
  • PC.IGN - 9.4/10
  • GameSpy - 5/5
Final Score: 97%

:: max payne 2 :: :: max payne 2 ::

#1 - yoshman - 10/27/03 @ 01:40 AM EST
I think bulldog just wants to have sex with this game.
#2 - Bulldog - 10/27/03 @ 02:17 AM EST
More or less.
/
#3 - Strahd - 10/27/03 @ 02:46 AM EST
I just hope it is good, because Max Payne was one of the few games I never bothered to finish.

The game plays in new york, a huge city, but there was no freedom of movement.
The are millions of people, but you only met people who were trying to kill you.
Max was vastly outnumbered, but anytime he walked up behind them, they always assumed it was him.
The painkiller thing was stupid. Health packs can't work so fast, but they wor/he pain; if your leg is full of bullets, you might not feel it, but you certainly can't walk with it. (Even without injury, painkillers would take away the feeling necessary for it.)
Third person might be good for bullet time effects, but it would have been nice to have the choice.
Even if you like 3rd person, it was infuriating to have Max's head permanently in the way. Enter the Matrix was a bad game, but at least I could always see the enemies in the character's direct line of sight.
I spoke to myself alot during that game:
/ "Get the f*#k out of my way, you idiot. I can't see a d#*m thing."
/ /
#4 - Bulldog - 10/27/03 @ 03:01 AM EST
/
I agree on the first points, if you're looking at it from that point of view almost any storyline is going to be unbelievable. As for the painkillers, still there in the sequel but EVERY game has some sort of health pack, etc.
/ /
#5 - ruiner.gg - 10/27/03 @ 04:47 AM EST
/
just to be pedantic, rainbow six doesn't have health packs :p
/ /
#6 - Anon@194.200.250.161 - 10/27/03 @ 06:07 AM EST
/
So does this sequel have much in terms of replayability? After I finished the first one, I never felt inclined to go back and do it all over again. That's the chief reason why I don't feel up to splashing out for this one - especially at full price.
/
#7 - Blindside - 10/27/03 @ 06:08 AM EST
/
Geeze strahd, way to be anal. :o

Seriously, you don't honestly expect THAT much from a computer game do you? =
/ Yes it's new york, a city full of millions of people.. but it's also a city that's been hit by the biggest blizzard in a century (or something like that). So my guess is that most of them are in-doors. It's also staged at night, again outside of 'normal' working hours, thus further reducing the likelyhood of people being around. Then there's the fact that you spend 99% of your time in areas where people just don't hang out. Except for those that are packing heat and looking for you. :P

In case it wasn't blindingly obvious, the first max payne (and this second iteration) are not based on realism. They are based on action-movie realism. Huge difference. If they were based on realism then they wouldn't be anywhere near as fun or successful.
/ /
/
#8 - Anon@205.160.248.5 - 10/27/03 @ 11:15 AM EST
MP2 is extremely short! I guess if a reviewer doesn't have to lay down $50 for a six hour game, he doesn't give a crap about game length.
/ /
/
#9 - colinp - 10/27/03 @ 11:36 AM EST
I think there's some truth in what Anon is saying above... Sometimes I wonder whether some games are really worth my hard earned $50, and more often than not the answer is no...
/
/ /
/
#10 - Evil_SPanKY - 10/27/03 @ 12:42 PM EST
6 hrs is way too short for a full-priced game. No way I am picking this one up. Even if it was 60 hours, after the bad-taste that MP1 left in me, forget about it.

#3 - Name me 1 game that actually gave you fully-free exploration in a 3D FPS/TPS environment. Its just not possible in todays games. Too much to model, in too short of a time.

Some give you more freedom than others, like Deus-Ex, but they still had their limits. You just could not go into ANY building on screen and go free-exploring.
/ / / /
/
#11 - PokySharpy - 10/27/03 @ 12:57 PM EST
6 hours is bullcrap. If you actually take the time to pay attention to the story and all the lil nuances, like Bulldog said, the game will take you at least 8-10 hours. Every television has something new and enjoyable to check out - virtually all the shows reflect Max's plight in one way or another. The answering machine messages flesh out the story. There's one point in the game where you find someone who's been surveilling Max and has been tapping his phone. Playing back that tape is both funny and sad at the same time.

Whenever I would come across bad guys having a conversation, I'd stop and try to listen to all of it before shootdodging through the door to drop em. If I accidentally interrupted, I'd reload the game and listen again. The little touches really make this game shine.

I guess all you guys just run & gun. You're missing out on half the game, which is THE STORY, not just the action. It's like playing a movie that knows when it's time to wrap things up. It doesn't just go on and on artificially because "we want to make sure people think it's long enough."

If you're that worried about bang/buck ratio, wait till it drops to $29.99 or something, then get it. But seriously, it's one of my favorite games ever, right up there with Baldur's Gate 2, Heretic 2, and Dark Age of Camelot.
/ / /
#12 - Malkavian^C^ - 10/27/03 @ 01:16 PM EST
I've heard reports that MP2 doesn't have quite as much of a grungy noire feel to it as MP1 did....anyone comment on that?

Bulldog?
/ / /
#13 - PokySharpy - 10/27/03 @ 01:36 PM EST
Malkavian - I'd say it's just as gritty as MP1, if not moreso. There's a lot more adult language and subject matter in this one. Lots of F-bombs, sexual references... All the killing aside, it's a more adult experience I'd say.
/ /
/
#14 - Bulldog - 10/27/03 @ 01:52 PM EST
I don't know, it has the same vibe as MP1 in my opinion.
... What Poky said I agree with.

As for 6 hours total, it DOES have more than 6 hours total, you just can't rush through the game and get into the mindset of once I finish the game once I'm never going to play it again.
#15 - Anon@205.160.248.5 - 10/27/03 @ 02:15 PM EST
#11 - Even Remedy has acknowledged that MP2 is shorter than MP1.

/ Six hours is about right. I've read reviews that claimed 3 and 4 hours of gameplay. I think that can only be done is cutscenes are skipped. Is sitting watching cutscenes gameplay?

But that isn't the point. Why don't reviewers take into account bang-for-the-buck. It is short with al/l. In that respect, MP2 is woefully inadequate, and yet the reviewer says it is perfection. That is nonsense.
/
/
#16 - PokySharpy - 10/27/03 @ 02:40 PM EST
#1/an MP1. I didn't dispute that.

I finished it in about 9 hours. That's all I can say in terms of length. Do I wish it was longer? I was left wanting more. But it's the GOOD kind of wanting more, like when the first Matrix movie ended, or when you finish a really good book and are sad because you don't get to live with those characters anymore. I didn't feel cheated at any point.

/ I guess the money issue doesn't bother me all that much. I have a good job, I enjoyed the first game, so I didn't mind forking over cash for the sequel.

I realize the price vs. length is a big issue for some people, but the bottom line for me is this: Taking money completely out of the equation and evaluating this game on straight enjoyment, it's one of the best gaming experiences I've had. I can't wait for the sequel promised in the end credits, and I plan on playing the game again on a harder difficulty, because I enjoyed it that much.

I'd much rather enjoy every minute of a short, compelling game like MP2 than endure the tedium of an artificially extended copy/paste bore-fest like Halo turned out to be in the later levels.
/
Bulldog - 10/27/03 @ 02:40 PM EST
Read my entire first paragraph.
And get back to me.
One out of two paragraphs for the gameplay portion addresses exactly that issue so saying I dodged the issue is insane.
/ /
/
#18 - BrinkHound - 10/27/03 @ 03:45 PM EST
I'd say it's worth a renting. Don't buy the game, rent it when it comes out on xbox. Max payne 1 left me angry when i bought it because it's so short. :(
/
/
#19 - Anon@144.138.69.63 - 10/27/03 @ 03:50 PM EST
I agree quality not quantity is the way to go.
Who has the time to spend a week on a computer game?, I can`t count the amount of games I`ve thrown in the bin in disgust at either the repetative gameplay or the lack of atmosphere, MP1 was great but with flaws, I`ll get mp2 as soon as its out, but I also agree the prices for games are to high, should be half what they are.
/
#20 - Anon@4.19.95.141 - 10/27/03 @ 04:04 PM EST
u can go for 12 hours if u watch the shows and listen to the conversations. by the way, havok 2.0 is in this thing so it's just like HL2 'cept remedy beat vavle to the punchline after that stupid delay. Dead man walking rocks if u hav someone to switch off with and there could be some mod treasures in the near future like the awesome Kung-Fu mod for the first game
/
#21 - nemarsde - 10/27/03 @ 05:47 PM EST
In reply to #19. I also agree with quality over quantity.

Another good review, Bulldog. Though I still prefer sweetjimmy's length of paragraphs. Yours are still coming out on the albino Masai warrior-side of intimidating (in constrained view).

(So I prefer sweetjimmy's length!? What's wrong with that. It's short, it's compact, it causes the minimum of discomfort.)

Anyway, good review. Tells me what I need to know, and now I know all I need to know, to know I don't need to buy this game.Last Edited on 10/27/03 @ 05:48 PM EST
#22 - Anon@24.101.254.42 - 10/27/03 @ 06:09 PM EST
mona's hot! :D
/ /
#23 - kyron - 10/27/03 @ 06:34 PM EST
um, so when folks complain about the games poor length, why do people say "id rather play short and good than long and boring"...?

because, thats a given. i think people who want a longer game want a longer *good* game, which MP clearly is... so if they wanted to, dont you think the game would have been *good*, even if they made it longer??! i do.
/
/
#24 - PokySharpy - 10/27/03 @ 06:52 PM EST
Kyron - Excellent point, but there's something that needs to be considered. In a game like MP2, the story really drives the action. There are reasons for characters to do certain things. Specific villains to catch, crises to avert, etc. In MP2, everything flowed nicely and naturally. Nothing felt contrived. To fit in with the game, any additional content would have to fit nicely into the story. However, too often when games are "lengthened", at some point you run up into one too many happy coincidences or out-of-left-field twists, and the narrative suffers.

Good stories feel natural.

/ I'm starting to sound like an apologist, but I just really really loved this game. Sure I wanted more, but the story had resolved itself. Sticking "more" in wouldn't have felt as right.Last Edited on 10/27/03 @ 06:53 PM EST
/
#25 - sweetjimmy - 10/27/03 @ 07:13 PM EST
*blush*
/
#26 - Anon@142.152.4.55 - 10/27/03 @ 08:19 PM EST
Hmm so I guess the next Max Payne can be 4 hrs long and it will still get ridiculously high reviews huh? Quality over quantity right? Hey I thought MP2 was alright, but it's got less variety and length than the original. Meh, it gets 70% tops from me...
/
#27 - Anon@142.152.4.55 - 10/27/03 @ 08:22 PM EST
oh, and to the guys saying it's actually a longer game if you watch the TV shows... HAH I'm not playing a game to sit there and watch that boring shit...
/
#28 - Anon@4.46.64.238 - 10/27/03 @ 08:37 PM EST
HEY!!!Captain Baseball Bat Boy is kewl
/
#29 - Bulldog - 10/27/03 @ 08:38 PM EST
Yeah, but it's not boring -- it's part of a solid storyline.
/
#30 - Anon@142.152.4.55 - 10/27/03 @ 08:42 PM EST
Well I disagree, I watched for 1 minute and then shot the TV...

My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my la/ord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady, My lord, my lady,

yeah really adds to the already boring storyline
/
- Blindside- 10/27/03 @ 08:51 PM EST
yeah good one #30, that's one instance out of dozens. The others are far from repetitive. In fact i don't actually remember that particular one on the tv's in MP2. I remember it from MP1, but with the "Lords and Ladies" show in MP2 they actually spent most of it having conversations etc.

/ I'm happy to see reviewers applauding the quality of this game. I'm sick of all the whinging. You pay how much for a new release DVD? How long is that? What about a newly released game that turns out to be utter shite? Are you happy that despite being the worst game of the year, it has plenty of gameplay hours? Please.. If MP2 was any longer it would have dragged IMO, it played out just like a movie for me. No deliberate "stretching" to try and appease the "bang for your buck" crowd.

I'll pay for quality over quantity any day.

I still haven't finished Halo yet and probably won't bother because despite being a VERY enjoyable game (on the PC), it just started to seriously drag out towards the end. If it were a few hours shorter i would have been much happier.Last Edited on 10/27/03 @ 08:53 PM EST
/
PokySharpy - 10/27/03 @ 08:52 PM EST
Heh, I thought the Lords & Ladies series was pretty damn funny. Dick Justice and Address Unknown were great "alternate realities" of Max's story. And the TV commercials were good too, including Vladimir's commercials for his restaurant, the gun commercial, the porn commercial... good stuff. Sorry you missed it.

/ / /
/
#33 - Blindside - 10/27/03 @ 08:54 PM EST
Gotta love how they slipped in references to Max Paynes appearance from MP1 in that Dick Justice show...

the guy describing himself, something along the lines of "with that constant constipated expression on my face".
/ /
/
#34 - Blessedman - 10/27/03 @ 09:02 PM EST
OMG I have yet to play a game that is a true simulator to the point of ultra realisum. 90% of the time, you get shot once in real life and you are not getting back up to fight. That is hollywood. Especially if its with any type of non-rifled barrel, you will be lucky to come away with all 4 limbs.
/ /
/
#35 - Anon@203.21.86.1 - 10/28/03 @ 12:06 AM EST
George - Most other games you have played are like a Four Litre pack of vanilla ice cream at the back of your freezer, MP2 is the 500 Ml Gourmet ice cream you can savour!
/ / / /
/
#36 - Cage - 10/28/03 @ 02:50 AM EST
Well I've heard nothing but good about this one when it comes to gameplay experience and quality graphics.

If it's that good, I don't care if it's only 6 hours long.

I just finished Halo PC the other day, and I'm looking for something else to play. I might feel different if Half Life: 2 was already out, but since it's not....
/ / /
#37 - Anon@194.228.148.112 - 10/28/03 @ 03:34 AM EST
Cheaty on PC Games.cz. Gas
/ /
#38 - Strahd - 10/28/03 @ 06:09 AM EST
#7
Quote: 'Seriously, you don't honestly expect THAT much from a computer game do you? '

- Yes I do. I don't expect more of the technology than is possible, but I do expect more in areas where it is irrelevant, like storytelling.


Quote: Yes it's new york, a city full of millions of people.. but it's also a /e biggest blizzard in a century...

- True, but even if a tiny percentage went outside, there would be the occasional, token bystander. And if it was too cold to go outside, why was every enemy dressed so lightly?

/
Quote: 'In case it wasn't blindingly obvious, the first max payne (and this second iteration) are not based on realism. They are based on action-movie realism. Huge difference. '

/ -A reason why many action films are so disappointing and get bad reviews.
Games and films should be true to the reality set in the story.
Example: Blade II. His huge jumps and strength were not unrealistic because he was supposed to be part vampire, but that his glasses stayed on even when his head was slammed against a wall - stupid.


Quote: 'If they were based on realism then they wouldn't be anywhere near as fun or successful.'

-They would be more fun for the intelligent gamer - you only have to visit forums to see that - but would indeed be less successful because the masses are superficial.

Last Edited on 10/28/03 @ 06:10 AM ESTLast Edited on 10/28/03 @ 07:17 AM EST
/ / /
#39 - EyeLikeP00 - 10/28/03 @ 07:53 AM EST
k, so according to this guy (#38) the matrix (for example) was bad because it wasn't based on reality..
hahaha.. movies and games are supposed to be fun.. and if that means taking a step away form what is feasible in the real world, so be it.
Last Edited on 10/28/03 @ 07:53 AM EST
/
#40 - Blindside - 10/28/03 @ 07:59 AM EST
And by intelligent gamer you mean someone that's capable of picking up and highlighting superficial flaws in a games premise and/or environment? Or someone that believes a game must be pedantic about its realism (or its ability to be consistant in regards to the level of realism set by the game) to be fun? There's far more to an enjoyable gaming experience than its extent of realism. If you can't look past that then i'm not at all suprised that you don't like MP2, i'd be suprised if there's really any games out there that meet your standards.

Personally i think Max Payne, and to a greater degree, Max Payne 2 do what they were intended to do very well. That is to create what is essentially a mindless just-for-fun run 'n gun shooter and wrap it in an exceptionally well presented, heavily stylised shell with a nice bit of grit and dark humour thrown in for effect, with enjoyable, somewhat original 'twists' to make things interesting (bullet time and the comic book style cutscenes). Hey it even had a good storyline too.
#41 - Strahd - 10/28/03 @ 09:24 AM EST
#39
You obviously didn't read what I wrote. The story has to follow the rules of the reality set by the story itself.

As with the Blade example, Matrix was extremely realistic. I have rarely seen a film with fewer logical mistakes than Matrix.
It was a shining example of how not to set up a load of rules and then consequently break each one of them.

/ #40
These flaws are not superficial. Serious Sam was basically without a story with ridiculous amounts of enemies who only exist to attack the player, but it was supposed to be that way and I enjoyed it as such.
Nolf would have been a good game if it didn't claim to have spy elements in it. Stealth didn't help in d/he feature. After playing the excellent Thief, you can see how much of this aspect was missing in nolf.

If MP was supposed to be how you describe it, then I would have no problem with the game.
Except with Max's head always being in the way. I hope that camera problem has been fi/
Realism and logic are very important for fun. Any joke which is not logical isn't very funny. Jokes on george bush being an idiot wouldn't be funny if he alway spoke and acted intelligently.Last Edited on 10/28/03 @ 09:25 AM EST
/
#42Cage - 10/28/03 @ 10:25 AM EST
According to Blues News, there are are some bonus chapters you can dl after you play the game through once. Details are in the readme that comes with the game.
/ /
/
#43Blindside - 10/28/03 @ 10:35 AM EST
"These flaws are not superficial."
They sounded that way to me, because they addressed things that to me were completely uncessessary and played no part in the games ability to be enjoyable. For example if there were people wandering around whilst i was making my way through some bad-guy ridden crack house in slumsville i woulda felt that they were very much out of place.

There are people wandering around here and there in MP2, the occasional bum, or cleaner etc.. but the whole 'bystander' thing is used very sparingly though, which is good because it just doesn't seem to fit IMO. The part where you're wandering around the Police station is a good example of bystanders actually fitting in and working well, which explains why they put them in quite well there, but the rest of the game really didn't need them that much.

"I hope that camera problem has been fixed in this game."

Ok, perhaps you should try playing MP2 then. I hadn't fully realised that you were yet to even try it. If you have a problem with the viewpoint then that's your issue, since i believe it adds greatly to the style of the game.

Cage, i'll have to check that out :D
The fact that you get an alternative ending if you play through again under a harder difficulty (the hardest difficulty?) is a nice incentive to play through again... But the best part is the Dead Man Walking gametype, that's pretty cool and is what i'm playing the most atm.Last Edited on 10/28/03 @ 10:43 AM EST
/
#44 - Strahd - 10/28/03 @ 11:19 AM EST
I do indeed have a problem with 3rd person; I prefer fps. I also realise the necessity of 3rd person in Max Payne, so I wouldn't ignore the game for that reason.
Optimally I would like to have a choice like in Jedi Knight. I played the almost all the game in 1st person, switching to 3rd for the saber fights.

My point is simply that to me, these games are using simulations for entertainment, and therefore are more enjoyable the more detailed they are.

-If a city is being simulated, then inhabitants should be aswell.

-Even if there is no reason within the game story to enter certain rooms and b/be possible.

To be armed with all types of weapons as a tough cop and then to come across so many doors which are impossible to open, even though they maybe flimsy doors in a cheap hotel which could be kicked in creates a very restrictive feel to gameplay.

/ I would just rather decide for myself whether it is necessary to enter a room. There is not much fun for me in going after my enemies if there is only one route available, no feeling of achievement in find specific objects if I had no choice but to come across them.

Play Thief and you may understand what I mean.
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#45 - Bulldog - 10/28/03 @ 11:48 AM EST
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#46 - Cage - 10/28/03 @ 03:26 PM EST

I still wish they would do a real Privateer type game with joystick support. That was one of my favorite all time open-ended games.

Maybe Strahd you are just wishing out loud what a lot of us would like to see in some games. That doesn't mean Max Payne:2 is a bad game, or not a heck of a lot of fun to play.

I wonder how open ended HL:2 will be. There sure is a lot of room for interactivity in that one. The levels look pretty decent sized as well from some of the movies.
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#47 - Viper-Reincarnated - 10/28/03 @ 05:02 PM EST
Ok you wanta game that has complete and utter control?


Planetside, everquest, morrowind, tribes 1 & tribes 2, Far cry, Operation Flashpoint, and good ole IL-2 Sturmovik.
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#48 - nVidiot_Whore - 10/28/03 @ 05:03 PM EST
I'm buying this as soon as I get a new PC.

6 hours rushed? 10 hours slow? PERFECT..

I'd much rather spend 10 great hours, than 50 repetative hours like most games.

*shrug*... $5 an hour? Fine with me. Plus I'm sure there will be a plethora of mod's for this game.
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#49 - Blindside - 10/28/03 @ 06:22 PM EST
the upcomming Kung Fu mod for MP2 is worth the $50 alone. ;)

strahd i understand what you mean in wanting freedom, and yes i have finished thief and thief 2 (and dues ex etc etc) so i know where you're coming from, but like i said before, i just don't feel that it would fit with the game. True freedom is nice, but it would detract greatly from the overall purpose of the game. Essentially you're playing a part in a movie, rather than playing a simulation of a cop in new york. If it were a simulation, then by all means i would hope you could go anywhere and do anything, but as it's more of a movie than a game, i totally agree with the linearity. There is still a lot there that adds greatly to the environment and that gives the impression of freedom. You don't feel 'locked in' to a specific path, you just feel determined to follow the path that's been given. That's because the game itself is well driven by the story.

eg. You run up to an apartment door and its locked, you hear someone inside mu/ing the police". What point would there be in blowing the door off its hinges or kicking it down when you have absolutely no reason to go into that apartment? What part would that play in the games overall purpose of telling a story? That max just likes to fuck around while he's in the middle of chasing a bad guy? :P
/
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#50 - ABBA - 10/28/03 @ 07:19 PM EST

The game should only allow you to have one life so that if you are stupid enough to get killed then you can't play the game again. Ever.

/ Plus you should have an unlimited vocabulary and be able to poo in the street.
/
#51 - Strahd - 10/29/03 @ 03:03 AM EST
/
#45
Again the example Thief, or Deus Ex for that matter. The player had to think.
As for the amount of rooms; have you ever played mafia?
/ It would indeed take a long time to make every room unique, but it is possibile in programming to use the same objects over and over, so from that point of view, the building would have the rooms the player is supposed to enter, plus one other two hundred times. Each would still look slightly different, because a randomiser would dictate which set objects would be contained within.
It might take a while to load, but it would be worth it to me.
Performance depends more on the engine; there are plenty of games with huge maps which don't ruin performance.

#46
That is the impression I got at so many game sites. I haven't played mp2 yet, so I don't have an opinion on it. There are just alot of things I wasn't to happy with in the first one.
There were alot of things I liked about it too, all of which were already mentioned by others, which is why I didn't repeat them.

#47
I never said I wanted complete and utter control. I just don't like illogical restrictions.
I do like many of the games you mentioned.

#49
It is great to see that I am being understood; it is just my preference and I am not insulting anyone for liking what I don't.
The game being driven by the story is not a reason for one path only. That is just one way of doing it. In Deus Ex, it was discovering things and talking to people not necessary to complete the mission which really drove the story. The player wasn't just seeing a story unfold, she / he is part of it.
And the point of blowing the door of it's hinges? Choice.
In Red Faction, you could blow holes it just about everything. How many players do you think did that? Apart from the novelty at the beginning, because that was never possible before, it was only do when necessary.
The explaination could be in the perspective: in 3rd person, you are controlling the character, in 1st person, you ARE the character.

/ #50
You are probably the only person who still hasn't understood what I meant by realistic.
Also, I never said mp2 was unrealistic; I was talking about mp.
/ I don't care if you read my opinion, but if you are going to comment on something, at least get your facts straight.
'Plus you should have...'
You do realise that today's games can only produce sound and vision, and have ai isn't/ything would have meaning.
'...and be able...'
How old are you, six?
Actually that's an insult to my niece who shows more intelligence, and she's only three.Last Edited on 10/29/03 @ 03:04 AM EST
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#52 - Reflex - 10/29/03 @ 04:07 AM EST
First off, a disclaimer: I have not played either Max Payne game, and I most likely never will. The genre is wholly unappealing to me, just like GTA3, Unreal, Quake, etc. Its not a genre I enjoy at all.

However, that aside, I think the major issue that Strahd is missing is that he is looking for a different game than what MP2 is offering. A game cannot be all things to all players. He wants to make a third person perspective optionally a first person perspective. He wishes to see a more realistic healing system. He wants freedom of movement to anywhere within the map he is inhabiting. He wants citizens wandering around(doing what..?). Etc.

He wants a different genre/type of game. Thats what it boils down to.

This is not a bad thing, but I think the major point that he is missing is that he is criticizing a game for not being the style of game he wishes to be, rather than for any flaws inherant to its own design. Max Payne is not a free-roaming/free-form game where you can go exploring. Its not supposed to be. Its a focused, story drive, point 'a' to point 'b' game. Adding the ability to wander anywhere takes away from that and detracts from the story driven focus of this paticuliar game.

You want a more realistic heal system. I do not see why. Since MP is designed to be more like a movie and less like a simulation, the painkillers are the vehicle they created to allow a player a bit of a chance. Its simply a representation of his ability to take hits, if you wish it to be more realistic, imagine that he wears a kevlar vest and that the heals are new padding for it. However since its a 'movie' style game, that wasn't really necessary. In the movies, people get shot all the time and 'tough it out' despite the fact that in real life that simply does not happen.

As for the first person/third person issue, I will point out that the developers *are* artists. They have a paticuliar vision for how this game is supposed to be seen, how its supposed to be played, etc. When you go to the movies, do you complain that you do not get an option to watch the movie from the main charactor's point of view as well? Max Payne 2 is designed like a movie, the 'director' has a vision in mind and that is what is shown. Once again, if its not your style, that is just fine, but that does not make the game flawed, it only makes it a style that is not your cup of tea.

Comparing the game with Thief or Deus Ex is rediculous. Other than the fact that it pumps pixels at your screen in a simulation of 3D, it is not even in the same league as those games. Both feature multiple branches, many different paths to the goals, and more than one possible ending. MP is not an open ended game, its a single experience. This is not a flaw, its a design decision that does not appeal to you.

The issue here is that what you have a problem with in this game is not its 'flaws' but the fact that the game is not the type that you enjoy. Criticizing it for not being what you want it to be is not a strong position to be taking, you might as well criticize Final Fantasy 7 for not playing more like Unreal Tournament since you feel that several aspects of UT are more to your liking than how they were done in FF7. Its apples to oranges.

I hope that I made sense. ;)
/
btw, on the price issue, its priced about the same as seeing 8 hours of movies, and its length should last that long(not to mention longer if you replay it for the bonus features). The only PC game I have actually completed in the past couple years is Freedom Force, so I would have to say I'm in the 'short and sweet' camp over the 'drawn out with filler' group...
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#53 - ABBA - 10/29/03 @ 04:20 AM EST
"in 1st person, you ARE the character"

/ No, you're controlling the same character from a different viewpoint.

"In Red Faction, you could blow holes it just about everything"
/
Not in the single player game.

"If a city is being simulated, then inhabitants should be aswell."

Your graphics card can render hundreds of people on the streets of New York?

"Realism and logic are very important for fun."

That sounds like someone who has heard of the concept of fun but never experienced it.

"and have ai isn't far enough that saying anything would have meaning."

Did you put this through Babelfish?

"The are millions of people, but you only met people who were trying to kill you."

Maybe everyone in the game read your comment that "the masses are superficial" and wanted to relieve you of your superiority complex. I know I'd be tempted.
/ / /
#54 - Strahd - 10/29/03 @ 06:03 AM EST
#52
Of course I stated my opinion that there are many things in the game that aren/ However, I NEVER stated that these things are FLAWS in the game.
The only flaw I see is the that Max's head is very often in the way and I can't see things in his line of sight. I am comparing this to other purely 3rd person games with the same type of gameplay.
I simply put my view forward, just like everyone else and it would be nice not to be flamed for it; I do/>
#53
Again you don't get the point.
/ Of course you are also only controlling the character. Many gamers I have spoken to and whose opinions I have read, agree that 1st person provides the feeling of being your character than other genres where the player can see the character's body in front of her / him, regardless of their preference.
It is because, as the name describes, the view point is that of the character; the player sees through the 'eyes' of the character.

I only played the demo of red faction and that feature of the geo-mod engine was available.

No, my graphic card can't do that, though I don't remember mentioning hundreds of people.
I wrote: 'even if a tiny percentage went outside, there would be the occasional, token bystander.'
Even my old tnt2 graphic card can render 15 characters all in action (ut), so five enemies and four others would not be a problem.

I have listened to interviews with comedians on the subject; that was a comment from one of them and similiar came from others.
One said: 'Comedy is very serious.'

If you feel tempted, you must feel part of the masses and have an inferiority complex. Most people who feel that insecure and readily offer others violence do.
I admit the statement was a bit harsh, but the more I hear about what goes on in the world, the stronger I feel on the subject. Also, 'the masses', doesn't mean 'everybody'.
Stupidity annoys me, especially my own. I don't think myself superior, quite the opposite, but I try to improve myself as much as possible.Last Edited on 10/29/03 @ 06:08 AM EST
#55 - ruiner.gg - 10/29/03 @ 06:59 AM EST
strahd is like bobby with a bigger vocab lol. comes in to a thread on a game he has no interest in with nothing but the intention of pissing on it... if you don't like the style of game don't buy it, simple as that.Last Edited on 10/29/03 @ 07:01 AM EST
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#56 - Strahd - 10/29/03 @ 07:08 AM EST
Not another one.

/ I really liked max payne, I played it alot, there were just a few things I didn't like which ruined it for me causing me to stop playing before I finished it and I hoped to find out if the new game was different in that respect to the old one so that I could look forward to the new one, which I am VERY interested in.

Got it now?
/
/tr> /"#06171b" width="100%">/ /
#57 - Cage - 10/29/03 @ 08:29 AM EST
Ok, I bought it. I'll probably play it all the way through. I haven't progressed all that far, but here is my early impression.

It's pretty.

/ Story telling is done/black and white art work. Think of one of those old gumshoe detective novels. The voice work matches something you would see on an old tv show, or in a parody of an old detective movie.

The environment is/tive in the same way the Half Life:2 movies seem//////
There are objects laying around that you kick as you walk over/into them. A soda can, boxes, a trash can, etc. But you can't do simple things like climb. When you open a locker you have to back up for the door to open some times. Nice, but not the full on HL:2 stuff we've seen so far. It's still loads better then most other stuff though.

The story really/ The dialog is kind of cheesy and predictable. I kept wishing I had a fast forward button.

The weapons don't sound all that great to me. I had the sound cranked to high. Most other games sound quite nice on my Audigy II ZX card and Klipsch Promedia Ultra 5.1 speakers. The guns seem to lack bass, and sound a little tinny. I'll have to play with the game options some more to see if it improves. Other environmental sounds are pretty cool, but I've only noticed positional sound during the set dialog sections so far.

/ I'm a sucker for eye /e the reflections in puddles of water, and other texture feat/
/ The jury is out still on it for me. I'm pretty easily amused, and this one isn't a stinker. It may not be the game for everyone, and Strahd is not completely off base in some of his criticisms.

I do appreciate the/n values in Max Payne:2. There should be more games made like this, where the game design meshes the story so completely with the game play.

I'm still not a big fan of the third person point of view. So far I can't say that I've seen anything all that spectacular from viewing Max Payne from behind. Now if it was a girl, and she had a fine looking...ahem....posterior, then I might feel differently.
/idth="100%">/
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#58 - Blindside - 10/29/03 @ 08:41 AM EST
I'd play with your settings a bit cage, because the sound for me was awesome on my audigy II ZS with sennheiser HD500 headphones. :)
#59 - EyeLikeP00 - 10/29/03 @ 11:48 AM EST
"I'm still not a big fan of the third person point of view. So far I can't say that I've seen anything all that spectacular from viewing Max Payne from behind. Now if it was a girl, and she had a fine looking...ahem....posterior, then I might feel differently. "

Get a little farther into the game... ;)
#60 - Megahurtz - 10/29/03 @ 12:51 PM EST
I really am not interested in this at all. I got caught up in the MP1 hype with all those super sexy high res shots with the high detail textures.

I bought the game the day it came out, finished it 3 days later and then never touched it again. I think I've logged more hours on the mouse pad it came with than the actual game.

The whacked out dream levels, repetitive use of slo-mo (you HAD to use it EVERY TIME if you didn't want to get shot up), and complete lack of replay killed the MP1 for me. I don't see these changing much with MP2 so I'll stay away until its in the $20 bargain bin.
#61 - Anon@203.97.2.242 - 10/29/03 @ 05:23 PM EST
Something I don't fully understand is why people dump on the game for making you use bullet time.
Firstly, you don't need to use bullet time constantly - I played through the game using it only minimally the first time (ironically, I didn't find that it gave me much of an advantage). The harder difficulties were a different story however.
Secondly, complaining about a repetitive use of slow-mo when it was the most advertised feature of the game is a little bit redundant.
Thirdly, the slow-mo was implemented into the controls and gameplay so seamlessly that complaining about having to use bullet time is like complaining that you had to strafe.

I'm not dumping on you in particular Megahurtz (I find your comments to be, on the whole, witty and incisive), but i'm a little tired of this kind of criticism.
#62 - Blindside - 10/29/03 @ 07:27 PM EST
Those that are not bothering to check out MP2 because of MP1 are *really* missing out. They took everything that i enjoyed with MP1, and pretty much enhanced it for MP2. They fixed up those areas that were shitty, like the dream sequences, now instead of being frustratingly hard or annoying they're enjoyable and very cinematic (and not overly done) IMO.

Just thought i'd point that out. :)
#63 - Anon@203.21.86.1 - 10/30/03 @ 12:40 AM EST
On the Bullet-time issue, I found the shoot dodge to be much more more useful an fun, in all but the most hairy situations.
#64 - Anon@203.21.86.1 - 10/30/03 @ 12:41 AM EST
Shoot-Dodge Deaths can become an art form.


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