Obama: The IDF "acted stupidly"

[warrior9275]

Nearly a full year after Obama held a press conference in order to come to the defense of his friend and Harvard professor Henry Gates, the President today held a similar conference to rush to the defense of "peace activists" who attempted to murder IDF agents attempting to enforce a naval blockade....

i'm guessing this is the opening paragraph of some news article any day now. probably after Barracks next game of golf.

[Injektilo]

way to storm aid ships, you fucking plums.

[Salvage Guy]

ugh another one of these threads! *yawn*

[warrior9275]

aid ships? hahahaha. it was a "protest" ship who declared their full intention to run a naval blockade, manned by this organization:

Prominent among the coalition organizations participating in the aid flotilla scheduled to arrive in the Gaza Strip in the coming days is the Turkish IHH (Insani Yardim Vakfi, IHH, “humanitarian relief fund”). It is a radical Islamic organization which was established in 1992 and formally registered in Istanbul in 1995. It is headed by Bülent Yildirim. …

In practice, besides its legitimate humanitarian activities, IHH supports radical Islamic terrorist networks. Inrecent years it has prominently supported Hamas (through the Union of Good). In addition, the ITIC has reliable information that in the past IHH provided logistical support and funding to global jihad networks.

IHH was expelled from Gaza in 08, along with 35 other union of good member organizations.

[Spanky Buttmunch]

Originally Posted by warrior9275

i'm guessing this is the opening paragraph of some news article any day now. probably after Barracks next game of golf.

I think he has taken up pickleball now.

[Injektilo]

Originally Posted by warrior9275

aid ships? hahahaha. it was a "protest" ship who declared their full intention to run a naval blockade, manned by this organization:


IHH was expelled from Gaza in 08, along with 35 other union of good member organizations.

I'm talking plurally, rybread. ante up.

[warrior9275]

Originally Posted by Injektilo

I'm talking plurally, rybread. ante up.

so you're calling fourth the good nature of some mythical blockade running gaza bound ship which isnt there to provide material and/or personnel to hamas? please tell me more.

[Spanky Buttmunch]

Interesting read,

DEBKAfile, Political Analysis, Espionage, Terrorism, Security

Ryan?

[J A Eyers]

Come now, Ryan, the Israelis manage to make Bush look like Sun Tzu.

But that's what tends to happen when you tell a conscript army of teenagers that everyone who's a browner shade of olive than them is probably going to kill them, then send them into situations where they're outnumbered by people who are a browner shade of olive.

[Cybro]

most world leaders, and the UN have also said similar messages

[Mishra]

well, the israelis have "accidentally" killed dozens of UN aid workers, as well as "accidentally" killed americans and attacked american ships flying american flags with a latin alphabet plastered all over the side of the ship, thinking it was egyptian. frankly, fuck the israeli army. at this point i'm pretty much ready to side with whoever is against them at this point, with all their massive fuck ups.

regardless, it was a turkish ship run by turkish people in international waters, making it turkish in jurisdiction. israel attacking it is illegal and can be construed as an act of war on turkey. it is, at the very least, highly illegal on israel's part.

p.s. the ship was carrying concrete and other assorted supplies. also, 28 people at least have died awaiting entry into israel from gaza for medical aid due to the blockade. the blockade is almost universally condemned by everyone.

[J A Eyers]

Ryan's only trolling. If it was an American ship delivering aid to Iranian rebels that was boarded by Iranian government troops who then opened fire, he'd be calling for WARRRRRR against Iran.

[warrior9275]

Originally Posted by J A Eyers

Ryan's only trolling. If it was an American ship delivering aid to Iranian rebels that was boarded by Iranian government troops who then opened fire, he'd be calling for WARRRRRR against Iran.

an "aid" ship with no aid supplies filled with people with from a terrorist-supporting organizations who write wills before embarking and sing joyous songs of killing jews on the way to their destination. happens all the time in america.

[KayaYautja]

Originally Posted by warrior9275

an "aid" ship with no aid supplies filled with people with from a terrorist-supporting organizations who write wills before embarking and sing joyous songs of killing jews on the way to their destination. happens all the time in america.

Ummmm, yesterday when I was watching Fox News and even they reported that there was nothing but aid supplies (furniture, food, toys, etc).

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Mishra

well, the israelis have "accidentally" killed dozens of UN aid workers, as well as "accidentally" killed americans and attacked american ships flying american flags with a latin alphabet plastered all over the side of the ship, thinking it was egyptian. frankly, fuck the israeli army. at this point i'm pretty much ready to side with whoever is against them at this point, with all their massive fuck ups.

Quoted for agreement. At this point we might as well put sanctions on Israel or feed them to their neighboring nations.

Also:

http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/amer...aeli-navy.html
http://www.sbpost.ie/breakingnews/ireland/eygbaumhkfau/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

Some things to consider.

[Socratis]

SAYLORSBURG, Pa.—Imam Fethullah Gülen, a controversial and reclusive U.S. resident who is considered Turkey's most influential religious leader, criticized a Turkish-led flotilla for trying to deliver aid without Israel's consent.

Speaking in his first interview with a U.S. news organization, Mr. Gülen spoke of watching news coverage of Monday's deadly confrontation between Israeli commandos and Turkish aid group members as its flotilla approached Israel's sea blockade of Gaza. "What I saw was not pretty," he said. "It was ugly."

Mr. Gülen said organizers' failure to seek accord with Israel before attempting to deliver aid "is a sign of defying authority, and will not lead to fruitful matters."

Mr. Gülen's views and influence within Turkey are under growing scrutiny now, as factions within the country battle to remold a democracy that is a key U.S. ally in the Middle East. The struggle, as many observers characterize it, pits the country's old-guard secularist and military establishment against Islamist-leaning government workers and ruling politicians who say they seek a more democratic and religiously tolerant Turkey. Mr. Gülen inspires a swath of the latter camp, though the extent of his reach remains hotly disputed.

His words of restraint come as many in Turkey gave flotilla members a hero's welcome after two days of detention in Israel. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of the ruling Justice and Development Party condemned Israel's moves as "bullying" and a "historic mistake."

Mr. Gülen said he had only recently heard of IHH, the Istanbul-based Islamic charity active in more than 100 countries that was a lead flotilla organizer. "It is not easy to say if they are politicized or not," he said. He said that when a charity organization linked with his movement wanted to help Gazans, he insisted they get Israel's permission. He added that assigning blame in the matter is best left to the United Nations.

more here, including more background on the guy: Reclusive Turkish Imam Comes Out Against Flotilla - WSJ.com

this is not so simply an attack on aid ships, but a politicized strike on Israel, the Lord's Kingdom. these were people who intended on creating a political shitstorm over this exact incident, and the reaction to all this has illustrated they scored a few points. it was perfidious against His Nation's allowance of aid through into gaza. Israel is not to be blamed

@peanut butter: Israel did not break international law. They never signed that treaty

[madbomber1998]

Originally Posted by J A Eyers

Ryan's only trolling. If it was an American ship delivering aid to Iranian rebels that was boarded by Iranian government troops who then opened fire, he'd be calling for WARRRRRR against Iran.

No, it'd be called stupidity.....

Also realize that Israel is running their own country (Gaza is technically still in Israel no matter what other people want) and Israel is running a publically notified naval blockade of the area....ANYONE who tries to go through the blockade is just utterly stupid. If the Coast Guard / Navy tells our ships not to enter a port (for ANY reason) - and a ship tries anyways - EXPECT TO BE BOARDED. And god-help you if you try to fight them off. (OMG!!! THEY MUST BE TEWWORISTS!!!!)

Seriously, anyone who tries to run a naval blockade is just asking to get their ass kicked in. I don't care if the blockade is right or not.

[Spanky Buttmunch]

Originally Posted by warrior9275

an "aid" ship with no aid supplies filled with people with from a terrorist-supporting organizations who write wills before embarking and sing joyous songs of killing jews on the way to their destination. happens all the time in america.

Israel let everything on those boats thru. After checking them.

There were no weapons or rockets or bombs.

Facts have a nasty habit of avoiding you for some reason.



My take on this bit of silliness,

I think god, Allah, Buddha, Odin, Jehovah. Kraken, Mephistopheles, Atreyeu and the Flying Spaghetti Monster are all ridiculous concepts created by ignorant savages to explain things they do not understand.

Faith wise I have no dog in this fight.

The simple fact is this-- The Muslim/Arab world (There are differences) needs to accept the fact that the state of Israel is going nowhere and there isn’t a fucking thing they can do about it.

If they do this and knock off the rockets and the bombs I am fairly sure the Israelis would live and let live.

Israel needs to vacate the settlements and go back to pre 67 boundries and the Arab/Muslim world needs to take responsibility for its shitty fucking leaders who do more to oppress them than any Jew has ever done.

Then we can all hold hands and eat lox and khubz together.

[madbomber1998]

Originally Posted by Spanky Buttmunch

If they do this and knock off the rockets and the bombs I am fairly sure the Israelis would live and let live.

Exactly!

If the stupid Palestinians would just quit with the who violence thing and just try to get on with life, Israel would bend over backwards for them. Eventually they would be able to get independence of some kinds (commonwealth or full independence) using peaceful measures. Israel doesn't mind friendly neighbors - look at how they treated Egypt in the past when Egypt was being nice to Israel.

If the Palestinians quit the violence, they could probably even get Israel to help them rebuild their infrastructure and such in their areas.

Quit blaming Israel so much. They wouldn't be out there blockading the place if the Palestinians were being nice to begin with. Just remember that.

[Mishra]

it's pretty easy to say knock off the violence. if someone came into your house and kicked you out and forced you to move to another part of the country in some shitty house that you've got to build from scratch and you lose your job and everything you own, you'd just be like "yessir! right away sir!"?

that's exactly what the israelis did to the palestinians. the violence at this point is retaliatory on both sides. if israel didn't blockade gaza and rocket bomb countries identified as home by palestinians, then palestinians wouldn't be attacking israel either. but both are attacking both.

p.s. madbomber, israel boarded the ship in international waters. if it was in israeli waters and was boarded, there'd not be as much of an issue. the fact that it wasn't in israeli waters and was invaded is where the issue comes from, as that's an act of piracy.

[Mishra]

so the autopsies are out
Autopsies reveal 9 men on Gaza aid boat shot, 5 in head - CNN.com

5 of the 9 were shot in the head. one was shot from extremely close range. granted, these are israeli commandoes, so shots in the head aren't surprising. what is surprising is the shot in the head from 2 to 14 centimeters, meaning the person shooting could easily have done something far less lethal, unless there was some kind of mexican standoff going on. at the worst case scenario it means a straight up execution in international waters by one sovereign nation on a member of another.

[J A Eyers]

Originally Posted by madbomber1998

Exactly!

If the stupid Palestinians would just quit with the who violence thing and just try to get on with life, Israel would bend over backwards for them. Eventually they would be able to get independence of some kinds (commonwealth or full independence) using peaceful measures. Israel doesn't mind friendly neighbors - look at how they treated Egypt in the past when Egypt was being nice to Israel.

If the Palestinians quit the violence, they could probably even get Israel to help them rebuild their infrastructure and such in their areas.

Quit blaming Israel so much. They wouldn't be out there blockading the place if the Palestinians were being nice to begin with. Just remember that.

Madbomber, do you even know anything about the history of Israel?

Until the late 1940s the entire place was called Palestine, as it had been for thousands of years. The dominant people in that country were Muslims and Christians of Arab origin. In the late 19th century the Zionist movement said Jews had an historical claim to the land... because the scriptures said it was theirs thousands of years ago.

Fast forward to the first half of the 20th century, in which the British Empire plans to carve the country in two, giving half to the Zionists and leaving the rest under the autonomous control of the Palestinians. This plan is interrupted by events in Europe. The rise of Nazism sends Jews fleeing to Palestine en masse, and after the war many of those trapped in Europe for the duration emigrate too.

The British mandate on Palestine expires and we pull out, on the promise that American forces will supervise the two-state solution planned by the Balfour Declaration. This never happens.

Instead what happens is that an organised Zionist force swelled by millions of incomers launch what amounts to a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Palestinians. Entire villages are torched. Palestinians who resist are killed. So most don't. They flee across the borders into neighbouring Arab countries who don't much want them either (as it continues to this day) but who try and fight Israel.

You may well argue that this was all 60+ years ago, and modern Palestinians have no claim to the country, but they have more of a claim, surely, than Israelis whose only claim on the country was a religious text written thousands of years ago.

Both Israelis and Palestinians claim Jerusalem as the capital of their country. Neither side wants to share that, or anything else, with the other. This is the antithesis of a Good vs Evil battle. Neither side have the moral highground.

And given what most right-wing Americans think of Mexicans coming into America, it's a little ripe to hear your solution that the Palestinians should basically just "suck it up". The Israelis have about as much claim to the land as Mexicans have to Texas. Less so, in fact.

Sometimes I think the whole Israel/Palestine territory should just be one big UN protectorate. If the kids can't behave themselves without a grown up...

[Desdinova]

I don't get the link between American baptists and zionism and I'm still waiting for someone to explain why and how the same people that believe the jews are God's chosen people and are divinely entitled to rule the holy land of Israel are the same people who believe anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus will burn in a lake of fire


I've heard it's because if they do then they can raze the dome of the rock, rebuild the temple and bring about the second coming that way, but I was hoping there was a less apocalyptic explanation

[Mishra]

i don't get that either des, if anything baptists should associate closer with muslims. muslims have jesus as a prophet. jews just have him as some guy.

[Spanky Buttmunch]

Originally Posted by madbomber1998

Exactly!

If the stupid Palestinians would just quit with the who violence thing and just try to get on with life, Israel would bend over backwards for them. Eventually they would be able to get independence of some kinds (commonwealth or full independence) using peaceful measures. Israel doesn't mind friendly neighbors - look at how they treated Egypt in the past when Egypt was being nice to Israel.

If the Palestinians quit the violence, they could probably even get Israel to help them rebuild their infrastructure and such in their areas.

Quit blaming Israel so much. They wouldn't be out there blockading the place if the Palestinians were being nice to begin with. Just remember that.

I am not absolving Israel of anything-- it is not so simple.

They have more than enough blood on their hands and are partly responsible for their current predicament. They are not innocent players and anyone who believes otherwise is not student of history or for that matter very bright.

We are not giving North America back to the Chippewa. It is ours now; we stole it fair and square.

Israel is not giving back Palestine and there isn’t a damn thing anyone can do about.


The Arab/Muslim world needs to accept that reality and move on.

[Mishra]

in that sense you're right, it's unfortunate for israel that they stole the country in the 1940s. we stole ours in the 1600s, didnt kill most of the indians for like 200 years. they're only 50 years into their theft and so it's highly visible because of tech.

[J A Eyers]

The difference here is that the Native Americans were outnumbered by white settlers, who cemented their position by killing as many of the natives as they needed to.

So actually, the Arabs have more in common with the white settlers in this analogy. Their historical claim isn't as old as the current inhabitants, but they outnumber the former by a considerable factor.

I'm sure if the Sioux had nuclear weapons things would have gone differently.

Nuclear weapons are pretty much the only thing that have ensured Israel hasn't been properly attacked since the 70s. Like the indigenous tribes of America there's no unity amongst Arabs in the Middle East. Sunni hates shi'ite, Iran hates Iraq, Egypt hates Palestinians, UAE hates Saudi Arabia, Lebanon hates itself, only Jordan loves everyone, but that's what happens when you get a Star Trek nerd made king. If one of them got a nuclear bomb, however, you better believe everybody would become their friend. And if that's Iran, you've got the problem of religious fundamentalists who believe the end of the world is coming being in charge. Against a united Arab world with a nuclear weapon, it's Israel who doesn't stand a chance. Their best hope at the moment is that they continue to use America as their proxy to divide the Arab world. So long as America keeps buying Saudi oil, you're not going to find Saudi interests (and money) switch to their neighbours. Of course that does mean more Saudi terrorists in the meantime.

[Mishra]

the weird thing about the muslim world is this fundamentalism is really very new, only been around since about the 50s. before that, governments were largely secular and people enjoyed far more freedoms than they do now in places like iran. the recent dissent there in the elections shows that the young people are often more democratic and "liberal" than the leaders. personally i've got a few lebanese friends who're pretty much just tan people who speak both arabic and french.

i think the outlash against israel is often not very vocal in the west because of it's association with antisemitism. it's weird because i know many many many jews who've gone to israel, and who still often think israel is a giant dick. only conservative jewish friends completely back israel.

[Yelsent]

Originally Posted by Mishra

the weird thing about the muslim world is this fundamentalism is really very new, only been around since about the 50s. before that, governments were largely secular and people enjoyed far more freedoms than they do now in places like iran. the recent dissent there in the elections shows that the young people are often more democratic and "liberal" than the leaders. personally i've got a few lebanese friends who're pretty much just tan people who speak both arabic and french.

More like the late seventies, Mishra. But yeah your point still stands.

[Spanky Buttmunch]

Originally Posted by Yelsent

More like the late seventies, Mishra. But yeah your point still stands.

One can only imagine where the Middle East would be today if the western world hadn’t been fiddle fucking around for the last 50 or so years removing and installing leaders based on greed and an addiction to crude oil.

We brought this on ourselves…reap what you sow and all that shit.

In the end the fundamentalists will lose.

Jersey Shore, Justin Bieber, Coca Cola and Levis will eventually win the day.