You know what drives me nuts?

[Sulalee]

It's having to listen to all the Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish tourists being interviewed in London every time it snows in England. 'We have much worse snow and we manage just fine', they say. And they're right!

Well of course they manage. But that's because they don't suffer from English mentality which goes something like this: 'ooh look at the state of it. I hope nobody thinks I'm cleaning that up because I'm not you know, I'm not.'.

We're bloody useless at running trains in clement weather, it should be no surprise that after two days with a bit of snow the whole fucking (excuse my French) infrastructure collapses and every piece of public transport grinds to a halt. It beggars belief just how shit we are at everything.

[Socratis]

i thought the british mentality was to curse their horrid existence on the dreadful isles while looking down on everyone else??

[Sulalee]

It is. Well no not British. English, which is very different. But still, you're on the right track.

We English are very good at self-criticism. We really are utterly crapolla at a wide range of things. That's not to say everyone else isn't.

For example I would hate to have to submit a form to a local official to get anything done in any mediterranean country.

[J A Eyers]

Originally Posted by Sulalee

Well of course they manage. But that's because they don't suffer from English mentality which goes something like this: 'ooh look at the state of it. I hope nobody thinks I'm cleaning that up because I'm not you know, I'm not.'.

Whilst the "blah blah blah complain complain rant rant whinge... why isn't the government doing something about it?" attitude is pretty endemic in this country (and indeed, Philip Hammond (and Boris) is getting the blame this year... just like the Labour government's transport secretary got the blame from the Tories last year), the reason those Scandinavian countries manage so much better is because they've had weather like this every winter for generations. Consistency and experience has led society to develop the expectation of inclement weather and to prepare for it.

In the UK this is only the third really bad winter we've had in my lifetime. Chances are it might be the last one for decades too. So why would the government spend tens of billions on buying up all that salt and winterising the country? Sure, if we get more freezing winters it will make them look smart (well...), but the odds are against that happening, in which case you've just spent tens of billions on something you never use, never need to use, and have to go to the electorate telling them it wasn't the biggest waste of money since the Iraq war.

Besides, most people like snowdays. That's the real incentive not to change anything!

[Sulalee]

I don't agree entirely, JA. The North of England has vicious Winters most years and Scottish Summers resemble the Arctic. But it's every year we have bad temps, if not snow, or bad temps or bad flooding or similar. Somewhere around the world people have whatever we have but worse. I do get tired of our mentality here which is we do nothing much but wait for the weather to improve. And every year we find ourselves saying how can the trains not be expecting snow or floods it happens almost every year.

Yet here we are, in the capital city of England and all trai stations are now closed after trains stopping around 9pm tonight. I think it's typically English to consider this 'normal' and not see it for the pitiful example of the worst of England.

But yes, regular snow or floods means more practice and effort at preparing for them.

[Socratis]

Originally Posted by Sulalee

It is. Well no not British. English, which is very different. But still, you're on the right track.

when referring to british, of course i mean the english. people usually do not refer to the black or mexican populations when talking about americans. no one cares about the fucking welsh or scottish. so, when people say british, they really mean english, because the english are the ones essentially in control of the country

[Sulalee]

Then you're an idiot. Honestly, you'd argue with cows that they don't mean moo when they say moo.

They're different countries. If you mean English when you say British it just means that you are ignorant and don't know any better. I don't have a problem with that.

It might be beyond your ability to grasp the difference but oh it would be lovely to see the reaction you'd get in the UK to insisting that every Briton is English. I'd love to see the look on your face as a Scottish man knocked every tooth from your head with a Glasgae kiss for calling him English.

You always think you speak for everyone. You only speak for yourself.


I haven't the energy to remain tolerant and polite in the face of your argumentative aggression tonight. So let me end by making this point, f*ck off you arse. Excuse my French!

[J A Eyers]

Originally Posted by Sulalee

I don't agree entirely, JA. The North of England has vicious Winters most years and Scottish Summers resemble the Arctic.

Yes, but both those regions have depended on funding from the south of England for decades. The centre of government is down here in the sunny south east, and so is most of the money. There's enough discontent about the Barnett formula already, without politicians going to southern taxpayers and saying "The Scots need you to pay more tax so they can shovel more snow". That's not a winning policy, whichever party you are. But it might explain why we only ever hear about snow and wintry chaos when it happens in the south - out of sight, out of mind. It's mostly us southerners who coo at pictures of cottages surrounded by 2ft walls of snow!

[Injektilo]

You know what drives me nuts?

your penis?

[Sulalee]

Lol Inky!

JA, devolution's relatively new. But I'm not sure where you're going but that's my fault as I will explain below later. My apologies, I think we're having two separate discussions because I wasn't clear in what I said. That's how I ended up in this awful discussion talking about politics and finances when I was talking about cultural identity and mentality!

Anyway I need to apologise to our Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish friends if my first post caused any offence. I think I worded it badly. I had not intended to say they drive me nuts but instead to say that listening to how well they cope while cheerily telling news reporters how surprised they are there's no transporter reminds me of how badly we cope and that drives me nuts.

I wasn't trying to debate whether keeping transport going in extreme weather costs more. I was enjoying a good moan that the English mentality is as much a contributing factor. We have that parochial mentality. I remember some comedian put it well (Paul Merton I think). He compared the Americans and English and postulated how different things would have been had it been us landing on the Moon.

He said the Americans planned a rehearsed every word of a speech designed to be memorable and to commemorate their incredible achievement. Hence - one small step for man, one giant step for mankind...

But if we had landed there things would have been very different. Our first words - 'Ooh the trouble we 'ad gettin' 'ere! I told 'im not to go this way, he wouldn't listen.'

We lack professional commitment in the non-professions. Go into Maceys or Bloomingdales and everyone is there to do a job and as professionally as possible. Go into English shops and as often as not, especially in London, you get the feeling people resent their jobs, they are there under duress and to do as little as possible until home time. It's like a plague in the civil service too.

[Yelsent]

Well, I must admit that some of the people I know who currently reside in England due to studies filled my Facebook news feed with a couple of 'haha, they shut the campus down on on account of bad weather with -5 degrees, clear sky and a couple of inches of snow on the roads.. :|' the latest week.

[J A Eyers]

Originally Posted by Sulalee

That's how I ended up in this awful discussion talking about politics and finances when I was talking about cultural identity and mentality!

Ah, but I think cultural identity and mentality feeds into politics and finances! When there was that bad winter in either 86 or 87 the people on my culdesac, which didn't get any grit because it was needed elsewhere, picked up a shovel, went outside and cleared the space in front of their house. The result was, everyone had a lot of snow in their front garden, but the entire street - the paths and the road - were clear.

Nowadays everyone expects the council to come and grit their entire route for them, so they don't do it themselves. They act as if it's an affront that they should do anything to improve the situation, because "it's the council's responsibility".

Winters used to be colder and public transport used to be less advanced, but people still managed in the past. The mentality is what has changed. I don't know anyone who doesn't want a snowday, so they're looking for any excuse not to make the effort to get into work. This especially applies to people who work in public transport. The reason trains get cancelled is not because of snow on the line, it's because of lack of train drivers. They want snowdays too, and because they're protected by the most (over)powerful trades unions in the country, they get away with it.

This situation works fine, mostly, for a couple of weeks a year. The reason Scandinavia, the northern US states and most other countries that get snowed in for months manage better is because they don't put up with it. If train drivers refused to show up to work as soon as it started snowing in the US, they would be sacked. So they show up and do the job they're paid to do. My wife comes from Michigan, a state that for half the year feels like France, and for the other half doesn't get above 0 degrees C the entire time. Nobody can get away with making excuses there. They just get on with it. And there are consequences if they don't.

If the government can tame the RMT, TGWU and TSSA like all the other unions were tamed in the 80s, then I expect we'll magically discover the trains work just fine in snow.

[Sulalee]

JA sorry am trying to cook lunch and post. I've gone back and re-edited to clarify my post and just spotted your last post. Sorry if I've messed things up. Must go check the carrots then I'll read what you wrote!

[Sulalee]

Well, as is so often the case, I can't disagree with any of what you write, JA. Your point about people clearing down their own paths and tending to expect the council to do it, brings me back to my point that we have an 'I'm not clearing that up, it's not my job' mentality. Reminds me of appalling parents who say it's the schools job to instil discipline or whatever else they can't do themselves.

PS, Yes re Unions, though I want strong unions I don't want them to abuse their power. I don't want anyone abusing it. I wished they'd just provide the service. I'm very anti-privatisation because focussing on making a profit is wrong for public services and usually fails to maintain or improve the service. Though the private company makes its profit.

Again, it's our cultural mentality. It's why BT engineers are sitting in cafes all day rather than doing a full day's work, why the phone rings on hospital switchboards for 17 mins before someone answers and puts you through to an answermachine!

[madbomber1998]

Realize that scandinavian people are USED to the snow and everyone knows what to do, they have the clothing, they have the vehicles designed for it, they have the equipment to deal with it, and everyone, private, public, government, knows exactly what to do because they deal with it every year.

When we lived in the mountains, they'd have the major roads cleared within hours of a snow and most roads within a day or two. But 45 minutes off the mountain, they were paralized because they weren't used to huge snows and such.

[Socratis]

Originally Posted by Sulalee

Then you're an idiot. Honestly, you'd argue with cows that they don't mean moo when they say moo.

They're different countries. If you mean English when you say British it just means that you are ignorant and don't know any better. I don't have a problem with that.

It might be beyond your ability to grasp the difference but oh it would be lovely to see the reaction you'd get in the UK to insisting that every Briton is English. I'd love to see the look on your face as a Scottish man knocked every tooth from your head with a Glasgae kiss for calling him English.

You always think you speak for everyone. You only speak for yourself.


I haven't the energy to remain tolerant and polite in the face of your argumentative aggression tonight. So let me end by making this point, f*ck off you arse. Excuse my French!

untrue. cows do moo

and states in the US are sovereign. scotland is not independent, and its foreign policy is that of the united kingdom. to the rest of the world, no one cares about the irish, the welsh, or the scots, they see only the united kingdom--which is ultimately controlled by the english. they are dominant. you're acting haughty because the UK's factionalism has twisted your mentality of how you view your own country (especially in understanding outside perspectives), or it's 'cuz you're pmsing

[Injektilo]

atch, when holyrood releases terrorists for benevolent reasons (aka making irritating americans go red and stamp their feet) and pass legislation that also affects england, you must come to realise sockrats, that you are not quite as well informed as the voices in your head make you think you are at times and should reclassify your comments to only includes the welsh

[Sulalee]

Originally Posted by Injektilo

atch, when holyrood releases terrorists for benevolent reasons (aka making irritating americans go red and stamp their feet) and pass legislation that also affects england, you must come to realise sockrats, that you are not quite as well informed as the voices in your head make you think you are at times and should reclassify your comments to only includes the welsh

Lol! You're a tricksy bugger but I love it when you say stuff like that.

[Sulalee]

Originally Posted by madbomber1998

Realize that scandinavian people are USED to the snow and everyone knows what to do, they have the clothing, they have the vehicles designed for it, they have the equipment to deal with it, and everyone, private, public, government, knows exactly what to do because they deal with it every year.

When we lived in the mountains, they'd have the major roads cleared within hours of a snow and most roads within a day or two. But 45 minutes off the mountain, they were paralized because they weren't used to huge snows and such.

Mad, that's obvious. How could anyone not realise it? The big clue is all the snow.

[Hamz]

i thought hanging on in quiet desperation was the english way.

[madbomber1998]

Originally Posted by Socratis

and states in the US are sovereign.

Not according to the Federal government.....

[Sulalee]

Yes, we do that too. In fact you just summed up my day-to-day life with great accuracy.

[Miss Lucifer]

Originally Posted by Hamz

i thought hanging on in quiet desperation was the english way.

Welcome to my sex life.

[Sadogoat]

Originally Posted by Hamz

i thought hanging on in quiet desperation was the english way.

The time has come, the song is over.....thought you'd something more to say....

[yee haw]

Originally Posted by Sadogoat

The time has come, the song is over.....thought you'd something more to say....

Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town!

[J A Eyers]

Originally Posted by Sulalee

PS, Yes re Unions, though I want strong unions I don't want them to abuse their power. I don't want anyone abusing it. I wished they'd just provide the service.

Well, as they say, even communists think they're better than the rest of us. Self interest drives everyone. When you have tube drivers on £40,000 a year going on strike because they weren't given a 5% payrise whilst the country is in recession and interest rates are only 0.5%, then that's a union that is too strong. They're not doing it for our interest, or the interests of improving the service, they are doing it solely because they want more money. Don't we all? I don't see why being a train driver is somehow more noble than selling bananas on a market stall. But in tough times if a market seller demanded an above-inflation payrise then he'd be out of business. And from shipbuilding to mining, that's what union militancy achieved in Britain during the twentieth century. Union militancy tends to precede the industry's collapse.

Don't get me wrong, I believe unions should serve an important role as a buffer between employer and employee, legal protection for the employee, a useful mediation service for both, ideally. But when they're run by a bunch of men who make over £100,000 a year and claim they're defenders of the working class then it's unlikely you're going to get anything other than a self-preservation society.

[Sulalee]

Power corrupts and absolute power...

[grov]

Sul, just ignore socratis, i do, he is a complete and utter prick.

It is amusing how much we struggle with a bit of snow in this country, driving is the worst for it, but then other countries use winter tyres and summer tyres, we don't and can't here. I struggle at times in my car if the roads aren't salted, but then thats my own fault for having the car i have lol.