spreading democracy: US troops rap

BorderCollie-san · 06-30-2006, 12:09 PM

[quote]The American army in Iraq suffered a fresh blow to its image today as it emerged that five soldiers were being investigated for allegedly raping a woman and then murdering her and three members of her family.

The soldiers are accused of burning their alleged victim's body, according to sources quoted by the AP news agency.

Major General James Thurman, commander of coalition troops in Baghdad, has ordered a criminal investigation into the alleged killing of the family of four in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad, in March.

"The entire investigation will encompass everything that could have happened that evening. We

Kensomniac · 06-30-2006, 12:16 PM

And this rape and murder makes the news because there were soldiers involved.

The hundreds of other rapes and murders this week will continue to be unnoticed.

GJ.

BorderCollie-san · 06-30-2006, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kensomniac
And this rape and murder makes the news because there were soldiers involved.

you don't think there's a difference between a criminal raping a woman in a city park, and a group of US servicemen gang raping an innocent woman and then murdering her and her family, when they've been sent to Iraq to protect them? If a group of police officers broke into a home and raped and murdered the occupants, would that not be a more legitimate news story than a single act by your garden-variety sex offender?

The story here is that US troops, in addition to murdering innocent civilians, are now sexually violating them as well. The rape and murder of a muslim woman is sure to go over well in the Islamic world. I wonder how many people have joined the insurgency today because of this.

Iago · 06-30-2006, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BorderCollie-san
you don't think there's a difference between a criminal raping a woman in a city park, and a group of US servicemen gang raping an innocent woman and then murdering her and her family, when they've been sent to Iraq to protect them? If a group of police officers broke into a home and raped and murdered the occupants, would that not be a more legitimate news story than a single act by your garden-variety sex offender?

The story here is that US troops, in addition to murdering innocent civilians, are now sexually violating them as well. The rape and murder of a muslim woman is sure to go over well in the Islamic world. I wonder how many people have joined the insurgency today because of this.

Waaaaah, the world's not perfect! Moving to political.

BuLLeT TiMe · 06-30-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

The rape and murder of a muslim woman is sure to go over well in the Islamic world.

This is what stands out to me the most about the whole thing. Yes, we are stuck in Iraq for reasons that get more hazy by the day, but is it really necessary to do things that totally undermine the point of being any sort of "rescuer/liberator"?

Superman didn't rape damsels in distress and then set them ablaze with his laser eyes. (...and finish by beating their families to death)

This will *not* go unavenged, I assure you. They're cutting people's heads off for just being there. Sex crimes...that's about the best excuse for violence you could give a person. Jesus Christ, people on this board talk about bamboo shoots under fingernails and castration when you talk about sex crimes...and we're wimpy nerds/geeks.

Is it really smart to give that kind of motivation to groups of people who are fully willing to kill others for a cause???

J A Eyers · 06-30-2006, 12:53 PM

Hmm, reminds me of that Vietnam movie with Michael J Fox and Sean Penn. Little changes. That was supposed to be a war of liberation as well. At least the American public have been a lot quicker off the mark with turning against this one.

BorderCollie-san · 06-30-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iago
Waaaaah, the world's not perfect! Moving to political.

Yep, way to go, keep general full of links to YouTube videos.

BuLLeT TiMe · 06-30-2006, 01:04 PM

*realization*

Apparently this actually happened in March. Wonder if there was a spike in violence around that time. All these car bombings/kidnappings/etc have accelerated in the last couple of months haven't they? That could be total truthiness on my part, but I think that has been the case, IIRC.

BorderCollie-san · 06-30-2006, 01:10 PM

I think it's only just being reported, so it may be the other way around. Maybe because of the increase in violence, US troops are taking out their aggression against civilians through rape and murder. The other atrocities that have been reported so far seem to have a common theme of the soldiers responding to the killing of a colleague.

StrangeWill · 06-30-2006, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iago
Waaaaah, the world's not perfect! Moving to political.

Quote:

Originally posted by BorderCollie-san
Yep, way to go, keep general full of links to YouTube videos.

Quote:

Originally posted by Iago
Waaaaah

Anyway, yeah we're there to protect them, another slap in the face for the cause, and that we just send sick people overseas to fight... oh well what you gonna do, we're already up to our necks in Iraq shit. Can't just jump out of it now, you get that suction effect making it hard to get out

madbomber1998 · 06-30-2006, 02:05 PM

Dangit, we need to pull those f-ing troops out of Iraq, they are so evil. Let's put Saddam back into place. Let him run his 'interigation' centers where they rape women and then murder their families instead...

nemarsde · 06-30-2006, 02:28 PM

Because, you know, that's exactly what we're suggesting.

You big silly.

Langolier · 06-30-2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kensomniac
And this rape and murder makes the news because there were soldiers involved.

The hundreds of other rapes and murders this week will continue to be unnoticed.

GJ.

In all fairness, every rape is a terrible crime but one committed by our troops is especially bad because it destroys our image and seriously compromises the mission. If this is true then it's disgusting and shameful. Though no matter what some people would like us to think, it does not represent the conduct of the United States military as a whole. If it did, then this war would be much simpler and it'd already be over.

Kensomniac · 06-30-2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BorderCollie-san
you don't think there's a difference between a criminal raping a woman in a city park, and a group of US servicemen gang raping an innocent woman and then murdering her and her family, when they've been sent to Iraq to protect them? If a group of police officers broke into a home and raped and murdered the occupants, would that not be a more legitimate news story than a single act by your garden-variety sex offender?

The story here is that US troops, in addition to murdering innocent civilians, are now sexually violating them as well. The rape and murder of a muslim woman is sure to go over well in the Islamic world. I wonder how many people have joined the insurgency today because of this.

Am I supposed to be surprised by this? This war redefines "FUBAR".

I'm just tired of people putting all of this effort into making this a big of a story as possible, when there are victims back home virtually being forgotten. It makes me sick.

This whole damned world makes me sick.

Ryan The Ruler · 06-30-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BorderCollie-san
Yep, way to go, keep general full of links to YouTube videos.

there's no pleasing you people. if we keep political threads in general we get accused of keeping them from being taken seriously and if we move the threads out of general we're accused of ruining general.

J A Eyers · 06-30-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by madbomber1998
Dangit, we need to pull those f-ing troops out of Iraq

I agreed with you up to this point.

Gretel · 06-30-2006, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by J A Eyers
I agreed with you up to this point.

The US pull out and then what?

Mishra · 06-30-2006, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nemarsde
Because, you know, that's exactly what we're suggesting.

You big silly.

well, its what i'm suggesting anyway. it isnt our country. let them deal with their rape rooms we will deal with ours.

J A Eyers · 06-30-2006, 05:13 PM

Nature takes its course. Just like you can't export democracy to another country with an army, you can't enforce peace by keeping occupying forces there to shoot anyone who gets a bit violent. US troops can't be there forever, and anti-West insurgents won't disappear whilst they're still there.

Mishra · 06-30-2006, 05:18 PM

if we stay, the terrorists stay. if we leave, the terrorists stay. since that is already what is going to happen, how about we just leave already, we arent doing anything but delaying the inevitable downfall of their government again.

Gretel · 06-30-2006, 05:22 PM

oh the whole invasion thingy was a big mistake, we're outta here, good luck people ("people"). Nature will take its course, good luck.

Mishra · 06-30-2006, 05:24 PM

exactly. their country will fall into chaos and a dictator will rise into power and kill all those who object. just like saddam and those before him and lots of other people in that region of the world. you cant bring democracy somewhere, the people need to rise up themselves.

Gretel · 06-30-2006, 05:25 PM

but once you've tried doing it you cannot just pull out of it once you realize it isn't fun, really.

Mishra · 06-30-2006, 05:30 PM

why not?

Gretel · 06-30-2006, 05:32 PM

because things are going to get worse otherwise.

J A Eyers · 06-30-2006, 05:34 PM

Korea? Vietnam? Running away like brave, brave Sir Robin is the first chapter in the US military manual.

Gretel · 06-30-2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by J A Eyers
Korea? Vietnam? Running away like brave, brave Sir Robin is the first chapter in the US military manual.

That's not the point though. You said the US should pull their troops out of iraq. What's your concept? What do you think is going to happen if they pull out this very moment? Do you honestly think this is going to improve the situation of the average iraqi citizen? How? Do you really think the iraqi government has got the capacities to deal with the problems there? I think that's a completely absurd idea, but if you've got a point to make - please go ahead and make it.

Mishra · 06-30-2006, 05:44 PM

indeed. there is no way for us to win this, as it is not a war anymore. it is just us occupying them and killing whoever shoots at us, which is a fucking lot of people coming in from all over the place. they wont stop shooting at us as long as we are there, and as long as we are there they wont stop shooting.

so because there is no way to win against these guys, our being there is doing nothing. say they do get up a democracy, they'll just be attacked by thousands of militants who then overthrow it as soon as we leave no matter how tough it is.

pulling out now would suck for the average iraqi, but it is not our problem. sure, im sure they are nice people and everything, but nations have borders for reasons. for them to maintain the goings on in those borders. going into other borders to maintain those ones is not the job of a government. it is nice, and charitable, but by no means is it a requirement or a responsibility.

Gretel · 06-30-2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mishra

pulling out now would suck for the average iraqi, but it is not our problem. sure, im sure they are nice people and everything, but nations have borders for reasons. for them to maintain the goings on in those borders. going into other borders to maintain those ones is not the job of a government. it is nice, and charitable, but by no means is it a requirement or a responsibility.

You have violated those borders and now you have to put up with the consequences. It is a requirement and a responsibility. How the hell could you even try to argue that this happened? It is not like US troops just popped up out of nowhere in the middle of Iraq. They are there because they have invaded and conquered the country.

J A Eyers · 06-30-2006, 06:03 PM

At the end of the day, it's better to stand by and watch people get slaughtered than to be doing the slaughtering yourself. Some seem to think there's a moral gulf between US soldiers doing it and Saddam Hussein's men being responsible. I don't. I used to look on the bright side and think that at least the cruel dictator was gone. But he's been gone three years and more Iraqi civilians have died each year since than died in the intervening periods between the two Gulf Wars. It should be a reflection on the US that Iraqis seem to have been better off under the stability of a totalitarian dictatorship, but it keeps getting turned round. Freedom only appeals to the living.

06-30-2006, 12:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
BorderCollie-san Registered User Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 4,051	spreading democracy: US troops rap [quote]The American army in Iraq suffered a fresh blow to its image today as it emerged that five soldiers were being investigated for allegedly raping a woman and then murdering her and three members of her family. The soldiers are accused of burning their alleged victim's body, according to sources quoted by the AP news agency. Major General James Thurman, commander of coalition troops in Baghdad, has ordered a criminal investigation into the alleged killing of the family of four in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad, in March. "The entire investigation will encompass everything that could have happened that evening. We

06-30-2006, 12:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
Kensomniac where the buffalo roam Hardcore Veteran Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,233	And this rape and murder makes the news because there were soldiers involved. The hundreds of other rapes and murders this week will continue to be unnoticed. GJ.

06-30-2006, 12:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
J A Eyers Better ban'd than bland Godlike Poster Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Southend, England Posts: 25,065	Hmm, reminds me of that Vietnam movie with Michael J Fox and Sean Penn. Little changes. That was supposed to be a war of liberation as well. At least the American public have been a lot quicker off the mark with turning against this one.

06-30-2006, 01:04 PM	#8 (permalink)
BuLLeT TiMe Registered User Grizzled Veteran Join Date: May 2001 Location: Detroit, MI, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 4,831	realization Apparently this actually happened in March. Wonder if there was a spike in violence around that time. All these car bombings/kidnappings/etc have accelerated in the last couple of months haven't they? That could be total truthiness on my part, but I think that has been the case, IIRC.

06-30-2006, 01:10 PM	#9 (permalink)
BorderCollie-san Registered User Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 4,051	I think it's only just being reported, so it may be the other way around. Maybe because of the increase in violence, US troops are taking out their aggression against civilians through rape and murder. The other atrocities that have been reported so far seem to have a common theme of the soldiers responding to the killing of a colleague.

06-30-2006, 02:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
madbomber1998 oderint dum metuant Epic Poster Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Boone, NC Posts: 15,564	Dangit, we need to pull those f-ing troops out of Iraq, they are so evil. Let's put Saddam back into place. Let him run his 'interigation' centers where they rape women and then murder their families instead...

06-30-2006, 02:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
nemarsde Hundred Hand Slapper Hardcore Veteran Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: UK Posts: 8,919	Because, you know, that's exactly what we're suggesting. You big silly.

06-30-2006, 05:13 PM	#19 (permalink)
J A Eyers Better ban'd than bland Godlike Poster Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Southend, England Posts: 25,065	Nature takes its course. Just like you can't export democracy to another country with an army, you can't enforce peace by keeping occupying forces there to shoot anyone who gets a bit violent. US troops can't be there forever, and anti-West insurgents won't disappear whilst they're still there.

06-30-2006, 05:18 PM	#20 (permalink)
Mishra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Elite Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: denver Posts: 14,334	if we stay, the terrorists stay. if we leave, the terrorists stay. since that is already what is going to happen, how about we just leave already, we arent doing anything but delaying the inevitable downfall of their government again.

06-30-2006, 05:22 PM	#21 (permalink)
Gretel icon. Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,958	oh the whole invasion thingy was a big mistake, we're outta here, good luck people ("people"). Nature will take its course, good luck.

06-30-2006, 05:24 PM	#22 (permalink)
Mishra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Elite Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: denver Posts: 14,334	exactly. their country will fall into chaos and a dictator will rise into power and kill all those who object. just like saddam and those before him and lots of other people in that region of the world. you cant bring democracy somewhere, the people need to rise up themselves.

06-30-2006, 05:25 PM	#23 (permalink)
Gretel icon. Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,958	but once you've tried doing it you cannot just pull out of it once you realize it isn't fun, really.

06-30-2006, 05:30 PM	#24 (permalink)
Mishra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Elite Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: denver Posts: 14,334	why not?

06-30-2006, 05:32 PM	#25 (permalink)
Gretel icon. Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,958	because things are going to get worse otherwise.

06-30-2006, 05:34 PM	#26 (permalink)
J A Eyers Better ban'd than bland Godlike Poster Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Southend, England Posts: 25,065	Korea? Vietnam? Running away like brave, brave Sir Robin is the first chapter in the US military manual.

06-30-2006, 05:44 PM	#28 (permalink)
Mishra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Elite Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: denver Posts: 14,334	indeed. there is no way for us to win this, as it is not a war anymore. it is just us occupying them and killing whoever shoots at us, which is a fucking lot of people coming in from all over the place. they wont stop shooting at us as long as we are there, and as long as we are there they wont stop shooting. so because there is no way to win against these guys, our being there is doing nothing. say they do get up a democracy, they'll just be attacked by thousands of militants who then overthrow it as soon as we leave no matter how tough it is. pulling out now would suck for the average iraqi, but it is not our problem. sure, im sure they are nice people and everything, but nations have borders for reasons. for them to maintain the goings on in those borders. going into other borders to maintain those ones is not the job of a government. it is nice, and charitable, but by no means is it a requirement or a responsibility.

06-30-2006, 06:03 PM	#30 (permalink)
J A Eyers Better ban'd than bland Godlike Poster Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Southend, England Posts: 25,065	At the end of the day, it's better to stand by and watch people get slaughtered than to be doing the slaughtering yourself. Some seem to think there's a moral gulf between US soldiers doing it and Saddam Hussein's men being responsible. I don't. I used to look on the bright side and think that at least the cruel dictator was gone. But he's been gone three years and more Iraqi civilians have died each year since than died in the intervening periods between the two Gulf Wars. It should be a reflection on the US that Iraqis seem to have been better off under the stability of a totalitarian dictatorship, but it keeps getting turned round. Freedom only appeals to the living.