OK, Very Serious Discussion

madbomber1998 · 09-07-2008, 08:15 PM

Ok, we all know this country is in trouble. This is a two part question:

1. What exact policies / changes can we make in this country to fix our problems and turn America back into the country it should be?

2. What ACTUAL changes do we need to impliment to allow us to make these policies / changes?

And no yelling 'Obama! or McCain! - we all know they won't fix our problems and just push us down the same road we've been rolling down for generations....

This is a joint effort here guys - no fussing or arguing politics. Let's work together and put together something that will at least start addressing and fixing the problems.

Mishra · 09-07-2008, 08:17 PM

you have to define what our country "should" be

madbomber1998 · 09-07-2008, 08:29 PM

*sigh* Mishra, you're now banned from this discussion for stupidity

(America, you know, the best country in the world? Home of the brave, land of the free? Where anyone can have real freedom and be a success? The country that helps the rest of the world out all the time? Stuff like that)

Mishra · 09-07-2008, 08:36 PM

well everyone has different ideas of what it should be. some may say it should be socialized medicine, and others would say get rid of all welfare completely. be more specific sir.

[Alpha]ShyftedOne · 09-07-2008, 08:41 PM

CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANGE everything

BuLLeT TiMe · 09-07-2008, 08:41 PM

Well...

1. Repeal the USA PATRIOT Act, John Warner Defense Authorization Act, NSPD-51, HSPD-20, and H.R. 1955. Nix the Protect America Act. These anti-terrorism laws are all bogus power-grabs and infringements on civil liberties. The War on Terror is an excuse for long-held government wet dreams to be brought to life.

2. Close down the Dept. of Homeland Security. Waste of money and space. The government had all the info and resources it needed to stop 9/11. Massive failures are not to be rewarded.

3. Apologize to the Iraqi people and make firm plans for leaving the country.

4a. Repeal of all federal drug laws.
4b. Release of all non-violent drug offenders from prison; convictions wiped from their record.
4c. Shut down the DEA.
4d. Release other nations from their "obligation"/pressure to criminalize drug use on our behalf.

4e. Allow the business and scientific community to investigate industrial uses for hemp. If there's a better way of making paper, building materials, fabrics, plastics, and possibly a cheaply and quickly grown source of biodiesel that replenishes the soil...let's look into it instead going all Mr. Garrison with the "drugs are bad". It would help us conserve fossil fuels and timber. You can't even get high from industrial hemp.

5. I think the only way America is going to right itself economically is to pare down the overbloated American Dream, simplify our lives, become more self-sufficient realize we don't all need to go into debt for McMansions as our "starter homes" and make an effort to start purchasing more goods made in this country. Yes, it means we'll consume less...but why is that bad? We've jumped the rails on consumption. Look at the "American Dream" from 1950 and compare it to now. We need to calm down a little.

6. Scrap ideas like the "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America".

7. Tar and feather half the Bush Administration.

8. An immediate freeze on new federal spending.

madbomber1998 · 09-07-2008, 08:42 PM

That's part of this discussion - what exactly do we need as a country? Though I'm pretty sure it will degrade into a 'socialism rawks!' to 'WTF, I'm not paying taxes for Bob the Bum's health care!'

Why don't we start with the basics - return America to a prosperous country where anyone can get a good job and make themselves successful if they want to - with full personal freedom and as little intrusion from the government / whoever as can be. Fix the absolute basics - you can always add socialized welfare and such after that.

Mishra · 09-07-2008, 08:43 PM

see those basics aren't even objective, some may feel that the government can fully intrude peoples lives and should.

madbomber1998 · 09-07-2008, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Alpha]ShyftedOne

CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANGE everything

How, and to exactly what?

madbomber1998 · 09-07-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuLLeT TiMe

Well...

1. Repeal the USA PATRIOT Act, John Warner Defense Authorization Act, NSPD-51, HSPD-20, and H.R. 1955. Nix the Protect America Act. These anti-terrorism laws are all bogus power-grabs and infringements on civil liberties. The War on Terror is an excuse for long-held government wet dreams to be brought to life.

2. Close down the Dept. of Homeland Security. Waste of money and space. The government had all the info and resources it needed to stop 9/11. Massive failures are not to be rewarded.

3. Apologize to the Iraqi people and make firm plans for leaving the country.

4a. Repeal of all federal drug laws.
4b. Release of all non-violent drug offenders from prison; convictions wiped from their record.
4c. Shut down the DEA.
4d. Release other nations from their "obligation"/pressure to criminalize drug use on our behalf.

5. I think the only way America is going to right itself economically is to pare down the overbloated American Dream, simplify our lives, become more self-sufficient realize we don't all need to go into debt for McMansions as our "starter homes" and make an effort to start purchasing more goods made in this country. Yes, it means we'll consume less...but why is that bad? We've jumped the rails on consumption.

6. Scrap ideas like the "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America".

7. Tar and feather half the Bush Administration.

8. An immediate freeze on new federal spending.

Again.....how?

And what will you do about the economy?

And as for 3. and 4.x, what will you do about drug use in the USA? And ALL drugs will be legal?

Mishra · 09-07-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuLLeT TiMe

Well...

1. Repeal the USA PATRIOT Act, John Warner Defense Authorization Act, NSPD-51, HSPD-20, and H.R. 1955. Nix the Protect America Act. These anti-terrorism laws are all bogus power-grabs and infringements on civil liberties. The War on Terror is an excuse for long-held government wet dreams to be brought to life.

2. Close down the Dept. of Homeland Security. Waste of money and space. The government had all the info and resources it needed to stop 9/11. Massive failures are not to be rewarded.

3. Apologize to the Iraqi people and make firm plans for leaving the country.

4a. Repeal of all federal drug laws.
4b. Release of all non-violent drug offenders from prison; convictions wiped from their record.
4c. Shut down the DEA.
4d. Release other nations from their "obligation"/pressure to criminalize drug use on our behalf.
4e. Allow the business and scientific community to investigate industrial uses for hemp. If there's a better way of making paper, building material, fabrics, and possibly a cheaply and quickly grown source of biodiesel that replenishes the soil...let's look into it instead going all Mr. Garrison with the "drugs are bad". You can't even get high from industrial hemp. No reason not to use it except legal cockblocking and false assumptions.

5. I think the only way America is going to right itself economically is to pare down the overbloated American Dream, simplify our lives, become more self-sufficient realize we don't all need to go into debt for McMansions as our "starter homes" and make an effort to start purchasing more goods made in this country. Yes, it means we'll consume less...but why is that bad? We've jumped the rails on consumption. Look at the "American Dream" from 1950 and compare it to now. We need to calm down a little.

6. Scrap ideas like the "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America".

7. Tar and feather half the Bush Administration.

8. An immediate freeze on new federal spending.

all awesome except number 8. a massive restructuring of it would be great, and reallocation of funds.

madbomber1998 · 09-07-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mishra

see those basics aren't even objective, some may feel that the government can fully intrude peoples lives and should.

Then let them make a good arguement for their viewpoint. You asked me what I believed.

madbomber1998 · 09-07-2008, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mishra

all awesome except number 8. a massive restructuring of it would be great, and reallocation of funds.

I think I'd re-write #8 as 'A cap on any further Federal Spending - IE, freeze the Federal budget at whatever it is now - don't give them any more next year; let them figure out how to spend it correctly next year. Let the government income catch up and go towards the deficit / slowly be eased into small tax breaks each year - maybe 0.5% - 1% tax break starting with the average joe every year for a few years after the first couple years - this will also help boost the economy, which will be taking a beating at this point.

Mishra · 09-07-2008, 08:52 PM

that i could get more behind, of course allowing for inflation.

also BT said federal drug laws, it really should be a state matter. yes, even heroin and meth etc.

[Alpha]ShyftedOne · 09-07-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madbomber1998

How, and to exactly what?

Well, the first action I would take would be moving this thread to the forum aptly described as "Serious Discussion"

Greyhaven · 09-07-2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Alpha]ShyftedOne

Well, the first action I would take would be moving this thread to the forum aptly described as "Serious Discussion"

I second this motion...

madbomber1998 · 09-07-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Alpha]ShyftedOne

Well, the first action I would take would be moving this thread to the forum aptly described as "Serious Discussion"

If you guys really want I will, but I figured we'd get more viewers to partake here. Let me know and I'll move it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mishra

that i could get more behind, of course allowing for inflation.

also BT said federal drug laws, it really should be a state matter. yes, even heroin and meth etc.

Oh, I totally agree - but like I said - what do you think? Also, even at a state level - how would you handle drugs?

Mishra · 09-07-2008, 09:07 PM

a vote. by the people, not state senate or whatever, blah blah blah.

madbomber1998 · 09-07-2008, 09:23 PM

but what options would you put on the ballot?

Mishra · 09-07-2008, 10:00 PM

whether to make it legal or illegal
then a multiple choice of 4 amounts that are legal, the maximum amount legal

then if it's illegal, the state senate or whatever can choose the penalties.

StrangeWill · 09-07-2008, 10:03 PM

Worse yet, didn't we have this exact same thread a few months ago? Which ran into the exact same issue.

madbomber1998 · 09-08-2008, 12:58 AM

Yes, but this time I am going to (attempt) to moderate it and structure it a little more. So far we are making progress - I think it helped that we are starting with the bare bones of the country and leaving most of the 'pet projects' from most people out of it for now....

J A Eyers · 09-08-2008, 08:35 AM

Well, you talk of going back to basics, MB, but how far back to basics do you want to go? The America you dream about sounds like the America of the "yeoman farmer", where everyone has their patch of land, can provide for themselves, and trade with what they have left. Lovely fantasy, but you're about 120 years too late to go back to that. The moment the westward expansion reached its limits, instead of moving into new territory, the land-grabbers turned back and started bargaining over what was already taken. The idyll of the yeoman farmer died the moment the first big landowner annexed your land, charged you to live on it and then demanded a percentage of everything you make. After that point, when people were no longer able to provide for themselves, it was inevitable that a culture of (inter)dependency would arise.

You're not going to be able to go back to that state, because it would take a communist revolution to take the land back from its current owners, and any communist revolutionaries who managed it would keep the land themselves 'for the public good'. Plus there just isn't enough fertile land in America for everyone to get a big enough share to support themselves. That was fine when there were 50 million people. Not so when there are 300 million.

So in a nutshell you don't really have an option but to go forward and hope for the best.

Chris · 09-08-2008, 08:53 AM

Serious thread is serious business! Moved this thread to the podium so it can get proper attention, keep the spam and pointless comments to a minimum.

madbomber1998 · 09-08-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J A Eyers

Well, you talk of going back to basics, MB, but how far back to basics do you want to go? The America you dream about sounds like the America of the "yeoman farmer", where everyone has their patch of land, can provide for themselves, and trade with what they have left. Lovely fantasy, but you're about 120 years too late to go back to that. The moment the westward expansion reached its limits, instead of moving into new territory, the land-grabbers turned back and started bargaining over what was already taken. The idyll of the yeoman farmer died the moment the first big landowner annexed your land, charged you to live on it and then demanded a percentage of everything you make. After that point, when people were no longer able to provide for themselves, it was inevitable that a culture of (inter)dependency would arise.

You're not going to be able to go back to that state, because it would take a communist revolution to take the land back from its current owners, and any communist revolutionaries who managed it would keep the land themselves 'for the public good'. Plus there just isn't enough fertile land in America for everyone to get a big enough share to support themselves. That was fine when there were 50 million people. Not so when there are 300 million.

So in a nutshell you don't really have an option but to go forward and hope for the best.

Who said anything about 'taking land from people' and all that crap? And why would we have to go forward from now - that's stupid and this country won't last 20 years from now if we do that.

This government is way too massive, bloated, intrusive, corrupt, etc. We need to reform the government and the way that people live in this country (and the world on that last part; their choice of government is up to them) so that we can survive as a country and ultimately survive on this planet as the human race.

J A Eyers · 09-08-2008, 11:31 AM

Describe (in the most succinct terms possible) your perfect model of society.

CtrlAltDel · 09-08-2008, 11:37 AM

Let's go back to Wild West times.

or maybe Medieval, since we didnt get to do that in the States

madbomber1998 · 09-08-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J A Eyers

Describe (in the most succinct terms possible) your perfect model of society.

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about fixing the problems in the government first. Then we can get into stuff like this.

StrangeWill · 09-08-2008, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel

Let's go back to Wild West times.

or maybe Medieval, since we didnt get to do that in the States

As we all know, Madbomber would probably die from self-inflicted foot injuries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madbomber1998

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about fixing the problems in the government first. Then we can get into stuff like this.

But you can't, even here people have vastly different opinions on what the government should be.

J A Eyers · 09-08-2008, 03:57 PM

Exactly. Every time I look at Bush and see centralised executive power in which every policy is exercised from the very top down, I think that's a terrible way of running a government. Then I look at the people who voted for Bush not once, not twice, but seem intent for voting for him a third time in a row (for all intents and purposes), and I realise that you have government by executive precisely because if you trusted people to run their own affairs there would still be witch burnings in Salem. Sad, really.

09-07-2008, 08:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
madbomber1998 oderint dum metuant Elite Poster Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Boone, NC Posts: 14,828	OK, Very Serious Discussion Ok, we all know this country is in trouble. This is a two part question: 1. What exact policies / changes can we make in this country to fix our problems and turn America back into the country it should be? 2. What ACTUAL changes do we need to impliment to allow us to make these policies / changes? And no yelling 'Obama! or McCain! - we all know they won't fix our problems and just push us down the same road we've been rolling down for generations.... This is a joint effort here guys - no fussing or arguing politics. Let's work together and put together something that will at least start addressing and fixing the problems.

09-07-2008, 08:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mishra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Elite Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: denver Posts: 13,761	you have to define what our country "should" be
	i dont really have anything to put in here but i felt left out on this EXCITING NEW FEATURE so i put it here

09-07-2008, 08:41 PM	#6 (permalink)
BuLLeT TiMe Registered User Grizzled Veteran Join Date: May 2001 Location: Detroit, MI, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 4,775	Well... 1. Repeal the USA PATRIOT Act, John Warner Defense Authorization Act, NSPD-51, HSPD-20, and H.R. 1955. Nix the Protect America Act. These anti-terrorism laws are all bogus power-grabs and infringements on civil liberties. The War on Terror is an excuse for long-held government wet dreams to be brought to life. 2. Close down the Dept. of Homeland Security. Waste of money and space. The government had all the info and resources it needed to stop 9/11. Massive failures are not to be rewarded. 3. Apologize to the Iraqi people and make firm plans for leaving the country. 4a. Repeal of all federal drug laws. 4b. Release of all non-violent drug offenders from prison; convictions wiped from their record. 4c. Shut down the DEA. 4d. Release other nations from their "obligation"/pressure to criminalize drug use on our behalf. 4e. Allow the business and scientific community to investigate industrial uses for hemp. If there's a better way of making paper, building materials, fabrics, plastics, and possibly a cheaply and quickly grown source of biodiesel that replenishes the soil...let's look into it instead going all Mr. Garrison with the "drugs are bad". It would help us conserve fossil fuels and timber. You can't even get high from industrial hemp. 5. I think the only way America is going to right itself economically is to pare down the overbloated American Dream, simplify our lives, become more self-sufficient realize we don't all need to go into debt for McMansions as our "starter homes" and make an effort to start purchasing more goods made in this country. Yes, it means we'll consume less...but why is that bad? We've jumped the rails on consumption. Look at the "American Dream" from 1950 and compare it to now. We need to calm down a little. 6. Scrap ideas like the "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America". 7. Tar and feather half the Bush Administration. 8. An immediate freeze on new federal spending.
	-BuLLeT TiMe

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Are you serious?	CtrlAltDel	General Gossip	15	07-16-2008 04:39 AM

09-07-2008, 08:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
madbomber1998 oderint dum metuant Elite Poster Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Boone, NC Posts: 14,828	sigh Mishra, you're now banned from this discussion for stupidity (America, you know, the best country in the world? Home of the brave, land of the free? Where anyone can have real freedom and be a success? The country that helps the rest of the world out all the time? Stuff like that)

09-07-2008, 08:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mishra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Elite Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: denver Posts: 13,761	well everyone has different ideas of what it should be. some may say it should be socialized medicine, and others would say get rid of all welfare completely. be more specific sir.

09-07-2008, 08:41 PM	#5 (permalink)
[Alpha]ShyftedOne Head Case with a Smile Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,590	CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANGE everything

09-07-2008, 08:42 PM	#7 (permalink)
madbomber1998 oderint dum metuant Elite Poster Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Boone, NC Posts: 14,828	That's part of this discussion - what exactly do we need as a country? Though I'm pretty sure it will degrade into a 'socialism rawks!' to 'WTF, I'm not paying taxes for Bob the Bum's health care!' Why don't we start with the basics - return America to a prosperous country where anyone can get a good job and make themselves successful if they want to - with full personal freedom and as little intrusion from the government / whoever as can be. Fix the absolute basics - you can always add socialized welfare and such after that.

09-07-2008, 08:43 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mishra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Elite Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: denver Posts: 13,761	see those basics aren't even objective, some may feel that the government can fully intrude peoples lives and should.

09-07-2008, 08:52 PM	#14 (permalink)
Mishra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Elite Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: denver Posts: 13,761	that i could get more behind, of course allowing for inflation. also BT said federal drug laws, it really should be a state matter. yes, even heroin and meth etc.

09-07-2008, 09:07 PM	#18 (permalink)
Mishra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Elite Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: denver Posts: 13,761	a vote. by the people, not state senate or whatever, blah blah blah.

09-07-2008, 09:23 PM	#19 (permalink)
madbomber1998 oderint dum metuant Elite Poster Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Boone, NC Posts: 14,828	but what options would you put on the ballot?

09-07-2008, 10:00 PM	#20 (permalink)
Mishra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Elite Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: denver Posts: 13,761	whether to make it legal or illegal then a multiple choice of 4 amounts that are legal, the maximum amount legal then if it's illegal, the state senate or whatever can choose the penalties.

09-07-2008, 10:03 PM	#21 (permalink)
StrangeWill Run! Elite Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fallbrook, CA USA Posts: 13,076	Worse yet, didn't we have this exact same thread a few months ago? Which ran into the exact same issue.

09-08-2008, 12:58 AM	#22 (permalink)
madbomber1998 oderint dum metuant Elite Poster Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Boone, NC Posts: 14,828	Yes, but this time I am going to (attempt) to moderate it and structure it a little more. So far we are making progress - I think it helped that we are starting with the bare bones of the country and leaving most of the 'pet projects' from most people out of it for now....

09-08-2008, 08:35 AM	#23 (permalink)
J A Eyers Better ban'd than bland Godlike Poster Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Southend, England Posts: 24,315	Well, you talk of going back to basics, MB, but how far back to basics do you want to go? The America you dream about sounds like the America of the "yeoman farmer", where everyone has their patch of land, can provide for themselves, and trade with what they have left. Lovely fantasy, but you're about 120 years too late to go back to that. The moment the westward expansion reached its limits, instead of moving into new territory, the land-grabbers turned back and started bargaining over what was already taken. The idyll of the yeoman farmer died the moment the first big landowner annexed your land, charged you to live on it and then demanded a percentage of everything you make. After that point, when people were no longer able to provide for themselves, it was inevitable that a culture of (inter)dependency would arise. You're not going to be able to go back to that state, because it would take a communist revolution to take the land back from its current owners, and any communist revolutionaries who managed it would keep the land themselves 'for the public good'. Plus there just isn't enough fertile land in America for everyone to get a big enough share to support themselves. That was fine when there were 50 million people. Not so when there are 300 million. So in a nutshell you don't really have an option but to go forward and hope for the best.

09-08-2008, 08:53 AM	#24 (permalink)
Chris Porkus Maximus. Nevar4get. Hardcore Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Essex, England Posts: 6,618	Serious thread is serious business! Moved this thread to the podium so it can get proper attention, keep the spam and pointless comments to a minimum.

09-08-2008, 11:31 AM	#26 (permalink)
J A Eyers Better ban'd than bland Godlike Poster Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Southend, England Posts: 24,315	Describe (in the most succinct terms possible) your perfect model of society.

09-08-2008, 11:37 AM	#27 (permalink)
CtrlAltDel Keyboard Cowboy Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Apr 1998 Location: Coding... Posts: 1,557	Let's go back to Wild West times. or maybe Medieval, since we didnt get to do that in the States

09-08-2008, 03:57 PM	#30 (permalink)
J A Eyers Better ban'd than bland Godlike Poster Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Southend, England Posts: 24,315	Exactly. Every time I look at Bush and see centralised executive power in which every policy is exercised from the very top down, I think that's a terrible way of running a government. Then I look at the people who voted for Bush not once, not twice, but seem intent for voting for him a third time in a row (for all intents and purposes), and I realise that you have government by executive precisely because if you trusted people to run their own affairs there would still be witch burnings in Salem. Sad, really.